Loading the Barnes TSX

I think it depends on the rifle. I did a 500 round test on a 40X chambered in 308 awhile back, and the crimped loads definately out grouped the uncrimped loads, but as I mentioned, I think each rifle is different (because I also have rifles where it went the other way). I just used that particular 308 because I know it's a 1/2 moa gun day in and day out if I do my part. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
I think it depends on the rifle. I did a 500 round test on a 40X chambered in 308 awhile back, and the crimped loads definately out grouped the uncrimped loads, but as I mentioned, I think each rifle is different (because I also have rifles where it went the other way). I just used that particular 308 because I know it's a 1/2 moa gun day in and day out if I do my part. - dan
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Unless the accuracy was so different as to be clearly obvious- Liek a rifle that consistently shoots 1.5" groups transformed into a .75" group shooter- it woudl be hard to come up wiht any real data that proves crimping is an asset or not - unless you shot a 500 round test!:D
 
Gatehouse said:
I agree..


As much as LEE likes to tell us that thier "factory crimp" dies will improve accuracy due to "more consistent" bullet release, I haven't found any measurable increase in accuracy. I have used the dies and I have no, and seen no results which would indicate the "factory crimp" an accuracy asset.

If there was, I guarrantee the benchresters would be crimping like hell.....
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If you read Lee's Modern reloading, even he admits the Factory crimp die will not improve a pet load, beacause a pet load is perfect. I like the FC die because it really speeds up the process when you're loading volume accurate ammo.
 
I quess I'll try crimping into one of the grooves and also try crimping onto one of the high parts and see which shoots better. My money is on the full thickness part.
 
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MHUNT said:
I quess I'll try crimping into one of the grooves and also try crimping onto one of the high parts and see which shoots better. My money is on the full thickness part.
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What exactly is your purpose for crimping?
 
The purpose of crimping is; 1- To keep the bullets from moving under recoil and 2- To give more consistant resistance to the pressure caused by the expanding gasses........... and if that aint the truth then I don't want to know because 3- Is to give me more confidence in my home loads.
 
Gatehouse said:
What exactly is your purpose for crimping?
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What exactly is your purpose of asking?

I myself have seen differences between crimped and non crimped loads in my bigger caliber rifles, accuracy and more consistent speeds have been noticeable. I also am not taking a few loads, more like thousands.

Is everyone out there supposed to drop what they do or not try new things because "Gatehouse" has not had the same experiences as some others? As I said before, crimping hurts nothing and costs basically nothing, but yet some like to argue like it costs an arm and a leg.

Try crimping your loads, if you notice any difference in a positive direction, don't worry about what others say, you will know the truth.

Is to give me more confidence in my home loads.
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If it gives you more confidence in your loads, who gives a s**t what the others have to say. Do what works best for you, that is what is important.
 
I myself have seen differences between crimped and non crimped loads in my bigger caliber rifles, accuracy and more consistent speeds have been noticeable. I also am not taking a few loads, more like thousands.
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Even LEE does not agree that this is always true.

If you read Lee's Modern reloading, even he admits the Factory crimp die will not improve a pet load, beacause a pet load is perfect.
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Even Lee knows that the best accuracy is usually obtained by chasing the lands with a bullet ogive. The chances of the crimping cannular being in the right place to do this are slim, and being that the engraving forces are one hell of a lot higher than the force needed to overcome a crimp it would be redundant anyway.
Crimping is an attempt at one size fits all for factory loads. They have no idea what rifle the assembled round will be fired in, what the distance to lands is in that barrel, whether it will be fired in an autoloader or a single-shot so they make their ammo short enough to fit in every gun ever made in that caliber. The most accurate bullets always seem to be cannular free.Think Sierra, NBTs, Bergers etc. If the most accurate bullets don't have grooves, how are the most accurate loads going to have crimps?:rolleyes: I know that the Lee die is capable of crushing a groove into a bullet, I just don't believe that crushing my bullets makes them shoot better.
My Factory crimp dies can keep on gathering dust.
 
I'm not for or against crimping, I only use it in my 444 because of concerns of a tube mag under recoil. I'd have no trouble believing some rifles will shoot better with a crimp and some won't. Just like some prefer a different distance from the lands.

Lee says the only reason to chase the lands is for uniform starting pressures, and the same can be accomplished with a crimp. Sounds reasonable. I think I'd consider a crimp on a rifle that restricts the OAL with a short mag, keeping the bullet too far from the lands. I'd also be willing to crimp a heavy recoil round for peace of mind, because my confidence is all that matters to me, not the opinion of some guy on the net.

So ya, crimp away if it works for you. :)

However you mention doing a comparison of the rounds crimped in a groove or on a high spot, why not add no crimp to the test as well?
 
crazy_davey said:
What exactly is your purpose of asking?
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My purpose is simple- I wanted to know if he wanted to crimp becuase the bullets were moving under recoil, or if he thought it may improve accuracy.

While the 338 has somewhat stout recoil, bullets shouldn't move if the neck is properly sized, and accuracy may or may not be improved. A crimp won't fix a improperly sized neck. Proper neck tension should hold a bullet snugly in a cartridge like the 338WM. If it doesn't, there is somehting wrong wiht your set up...

Is everyone out there supposed to drop what they do or not try new things because "Gatehouse" has not had the same experiences as some others?
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Your name sure is accurate. Only a crazy person would come to the conclusion that I suggested this by asking a simple question:rolleyes:


As I said before, crimping hurts nothing and costs basically nothing, but yet some like to argue like it costs an arm and a leg
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How much it costs or how much time it takes is irrelevant. The subject is whether it is beneficial or not.

The main purpose of a crimp is to hold the bullet in place, not accuracy. Some people believe they experience an increase in accuracy form crimping, others do not.

If MHUNT feels crimping gives him more confidence, that is fine, but the truth is, his bullet shouldn't move if the neck has proper tension, and whether accuracy will increase or decrease is probably impossible to tell until he has shot several hundred rounds of each.
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crimping

My my after 45 years of reloading I had thought this would be a mute point.
Other than for tube mags this is a waste of time and this conclusion has been arrived at by the reloading community every 10 years or so. Then comes a new generation of loaders and back comes the crimping question. Then away it goes once again. Must be the 10 years are up again.
May be a point for the real large calibers 404 up.
The TSX bullet has 3 groves for a specific purpose (log onto Barnes for the story) and crimping is not one of them.
For those who wish to argue talk to me after you have 30 plus years into this hobby.
Course by then I will likely not be able to remember what a reload is. Gosh starting to sound like a Grumpy Old Man.
Don
 
dcan, can I get some of that common sense or is it too expensive. In a bottle neck cartridge anything that has a recoil speed of less than 21 ft/sec will need nothing but neck tension. If low velocity spreads are what you are really looking for try different powder primer/primer combinations, as well as sizing your cases in two steps, 1- size the case body without the neck expander/decapper pin in, 2- with only one or two threads holding the stem in the die, run the expander ball through the neck. This keeps the case body and neck more aligned, helping bullet 'run out' stay low. Working mans terms, it makes straighter loaded rounds, so the pressures are more consistent, hence lower extreme spread and more accurate rounds, because the whole bullet ogive contacts the lands at the same time. Also remember that low extreme spread doesn't always mean better accuracy.
I tried the whole crimping thing a while back, and I came to the conclusion that handgun cartridges and straight wall cases are the only thing I will crimp anymore. Everything else was either a waste of time or detrimental, especially with softer copper bullets (barnes X(TSX), Swift, etc.).
My personal .338 Win. Mag is shooting 210gr TSX's 3000fps out of a 7.5 lbs setup. I didn't have one bullet compress so much as a .0001 and my calculated recoil speed was 23 ft/sec. That's just shy of 458 Lott in a 9lb rifle go figure.
Anyway, I enjoyed crimping when I did it so if you like to, shoot. But I wouldn't do it on a Barnes, even Ty says he has had accuarcy problems in the lab when he did it.
Just make it go boom:shotgun:
 
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crimping

Well rem338win from what I read you have been long on the reloading trail and have paid your dues to the Reloading Gods.
To the others this is not rocket science, just follow the rules and you too may never shoot another factory load. Take a lot of what you hear with a grain of salt.
I enjoy talking to some of the younger shooters in town. Some of the things explained to me are factory shells are much better to reloads. I have long stopped trying to preach to the unbelieving and now just nod and smile.
Imagine trying to better a group of 1.25" out of a 22-250 c/w Ziess 6-20 scope with reloads?????????? Unheard off.;)
Been many years since factory shells were only to provide brass.
Take care
Don
 
I really appreciate all the time and energy that some of you are pouring into this thread and I appreciate the opinions and the benifit of your experience... I am not new to this, and have 3 hunting rifles that consistantly shoot 3 shot 1/2" groups with my hand loads. All of which are factory crimped, Hornady bullets and Winchester mag primers. I am currently working on a load for my sons Sako stainless synthetic 338 WM, and it doesn't seem to like the loads that work great in my belgium browning 338. When it didn't like my loads, I tried a bunch of factory stuff to find a starting point, and the only one that shoots under 1" is the Federal 210 N/P's. After seeing 6 grizzlies on our last moose trip, including a chat with a sow and her cubs at 50 odd yards, I would like to work up something with a bullet known for its penetration and reliable expansion. Nosler partitions tend to separate and are no longer the best performing bullet on the market. (Lets not beat that one to death now) It is possible that the barnes TSX does not do well with crimping, so I like the suggestion of trying some without. Anyway lets try to keep it friendly and non personal, but if it comes to blows...do me first.
 
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MHUNT,
The TSXs have a few traits that make them different to load for. They are more sensitive to length to land distance than most bullets for starters. Barnes suggests seating .050" off to start, working up a load in the traditional way then playing with seating depth from there. It isn't always possible given mag lengths and throat lengths on different rifles. The Hornadys that you are loading for your other rifles are about as easy to get to shoot as any bullet out there, they make loading easy. Some rifles never do shoot TSXs worth a hoot. A hunting rifle that shoots 210 gr Partition factory loads into an inch isn't the end of the world, 20 years ago guys would have hauled that target to the bar to show everyone.
 
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