Long range precision rifle. 308 or 223?

I have both 223 and 308 in rem 700p. I really like them both. For "my" purposes the 223 does what the 308 can do out to 500m if the wind is playing fair. With that said i plan on re-barreling my 308 to a 260 some day to give me a bit more range. My 308 load (178Amax) loses a lot of accuracy beyond 700m; but being fair is is on the cool side. My 223 shoots 69smk very well, but they still aren't cheap bullets to buy. Lately i have tried running bulk 55gr fmjs, and have been pleasantly surprised by the performance out to 500m and it makes for pretty inexpensive fun which is my intended use for the 223.

So my recommendations, if this is a serious, long range precision rig, look at the 6.5/260 cartridges. Reloading helps. If your just looking for getting into long range while trying to keep the cost down go with 223.
 
cody182005 said:
I have both 223 and 308 in rem 700p. I really like them both. For "my" purposes the 223 does what the 308 can do out to 500m if the wind is playing fair. With that said i plan on re-barreling my 308 to a 260 some day to give me a bit more range. My 308 load (178Amax) loses a lot of accuracy beyond 700m; but being fair is is on the cool side. My 223 shoots 69smk very well, but they still aren't cheap bullets to buy. Lately i have tried running bulk 55gr fmjs, and have been pleasantly surprised by the performance out to 500m and it makes for pretty inexpensive fun which is my intended use for the 223.

So my recommendations, if this is a serious, long range precision rig, look at the 6.5/260 cartridges. Reloading helps. If your just looking for getting into long range while trying to keep the cost down go with 223.
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Want to shoot better ditch the Amax I know they are economical but... Try Berger 175 OTM or the 185 juggs. They are pricey but so is a new barrel. Keep the Amax for short range if you like them and Bergers for the long stuff. If you can safely get there the 185 pushed to 2700fps and you are +1000 yard capable.
 
Thanks all. I have a couple donors I was thinking about using. I think I'm going with the 308. I doubt I will be going any further than 700 - 800 meters. I have been reading the forums on the 6.5 and similar rounds. I guess I'm just stuck on what I'm used to for now. Most likely set up a 700 or model 10 action with a decent barrel and chassis. Been talking to Jerry a bit.
The glass is the scary part... And the reloading learning curve.
 
MackForce said:
Thanks all. I have a couple donors I was thinking about using. I think I'm going with the 308. I doubt I will be going any further than 700 - 800 meters. I have been reading the forums on the 6.5 and similar rounds. I guess I'm just stuck on what I'm used to for now. Most likely set up a 700 or model 10 action with a decent barrel and chassis. Been talking to Jerry a bit.
The glass is the scary part... And the reloading learning curve.
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then shoot the 308 with 155.5 triple nickel berger bullets for up to 800 meters

jeff
 
I'll check those out. I'm new to reloading so my experience is limited to factory ammo, to this point. I do know the 308 choices are usually vast at the shops I've visited. I'll start looking at ammo once I get this rifle figured out.
 
308 vs 223 ... come down to what you are trying to accomplish. In F-Class, the 223 can dominate in low wind short/mid range conditions. At long range in wind, they suffer ballistically - those shooting 223 at long range (broad generality coming here ...) are those that are shooting because they want an additional challenge in trying to make a 223 beat a 308 at long range. You mention benchrest, for which I have no experience, but the 308 works well at long range - likely best in the medium (say 175-200gr) bullets without too much effort - heavier bullets will require more tweaking.
 
In order to get good at long range shooting, you have to do it a lot, under in a broad range of environmental conditions. When both the .308 and the .223 are loaded for long range performance, the G-7s are similar, and therefore drift and trajectory are as well. As long as the point of the exercise is to put a hole in a paper target, rather than down a game animal, the .223 is an appropriate long range cartridge. It provides more rounds per shooting dollar, thus translates into more rounds going downrange over a given period of time. Each one of those rounds provides the shooter an opportunity to dope wind, mirage, variable light, coriolis, and the other bogeymen that confound long range marksmen.
 
i will second above - been there done that! 223 with 80-90's works ok at long range. I will also agree that the short 6mm calibers work better than the 308 and 223 - cheap to shoot and wickedly accurate with the proper setup. Pick a cartridge that can zip a 105 hybrid 2800 + fps and you're golden! I am shooting a 28" barrel 6BR to 1000 with relatively no issues, VERY accurate, light recoil, inexpensive to reload (30gr powder) - 5 MOA less drop at 1000 than the 308 or 223, and bucks the wind pretty darn good
Food for thought.
 
Points taken. I have a 223 that I can practise with now. So I will be starting with that. Model 12, 26" barrel, Bedded in the original stock. The accu trigger is decent. I sold off all my 308s aside from short barreled deer rifles. Both my 308s have 20" barrels. In the past, when grouping them, I can't seem to get the accuracy in the 20" I could with the longer barrels.
My plan is to set up the 308 with a 26" barrel and some nicer parts.
Also I'm starting reloading in a few weeks (after I move and movers get my stuff there). So it sounds like my limited skills will be tested more with reloading 223 over 308? 223 ammo is cheaper. To date, I pick up bulk when I can and have many different rounds to use. I also have match grade ammo for both calibres.
As for purpose, competing will be a couple years out. So I'm trying to find one that I can learn with and possibly use in the future. But let's face it... If I get to competition ready.. It will be another excuse to upgrade and buy a new rifle. So this will be a starter/learner that I can be comfortable enough to say it's the shooter and not the rifle.
 
For what it's worth, I've been shooting a 20" barrelled .308 all summer. 178gr Amax over 43 grains of Varget getting about 2550fps (a mild load) Started competing this summer as well and that has really sped up the learning curve. Shot a 5 round .877 moa group at 830 yards yesterday. I've yet to push her past 870 but will at a match this weekend. That being said, I wish I had gone with something in 6.5 from the get go and will be re-barrelling this rig or putting something new together in 6.5 later this fall. If you already have a .223 you can practice with, I don't see why not to go straight to a ballistically superior cartridge like 6.5CM, .260, 6.5x47 since you're building from the ground up anyways?
 
In my experience we are seeing a lot of .308 starting to tumble as close as 900m. I don't have much experience on .223 for longer ranges as our considered max effective range for it is 600m and less. Depends on how precise you're looking for I suppose. Most of our really precise long range shooting is done with a .338. That being said I know that the .223 despite being light is an extremely fast round so maybe on the right platform it could get out and touch things.
 
Alright... So just checking around on my usual site sponsors... Very limited off the shelf models of 6.5 (I'm not into the Ruger) and 260s.. I see model 7s, tikkas and Rugers available.. but looks like ill have to shop around for an off the shelf set up.
If you guys are going with 6.5 or 260.. Are you just grabbing a rifle (rem 700, savage, etc) for the action and getting the barrel fit for 6.5 or 260? What does something like that run for a smith to get that set up going with supplied parts?

Thanks again,

Mack

EDIT what do you guys think about the Savage 10BA Stealth, 24" in 6.5 Creedmore? You think that would get me off to the races and skip the smith wait times, straight to the reloading? New barrel later on..
 
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rugbydave said:
For what it's worth, I've been shooting a 20" barrelled .308 all summer. 178gr Amax over 43 grains of Varget getting about 2550fps (a mild load) Started competing this summer as well and that has really sped up the learning curve. Shot a 5 round .877 moa group at 830 yards yesterday. I've yet to push her past 870 but will at a match this weekend. That being said, I wish I had gone with something in 6.5 from the get go and will be re-barrelling this rig or putting something new together in 6.5 later this fall. If you already have a .223 you can practice with, I don't see why not to go straight to a ballistically superior cartridge like 6.5CM, .260, 6.5x47 since you're building from the ground up anyways?
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Were you planning on rattlesnake? If so it got canceled.
 
twosmokinspades said:
Were you planning on rattlesnake? If so it got canceled.
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I shot the NWPRL match at Rattlesnake on August 20th. This Saturday there's another NWPRL points match at Tactical Supply down in Naches, WA. I think John cancelled this weekend's match at Rattlesnake because of the Tac Supply match? You should come down for the Rock Lake one on October 1st!
 
If this is just for learning right now, Id save some cash and just put some money into your model 12 and learn with the 223. I really like my 223 and what I really like about it is that its cheap to shoot which gets me more trigger time. In the end I think that wins every time over the fact of trying to shoot a bigger cal to make up for it. :) Really makes you pay more attention to the shooting conditions.

Im also going to add, get out and start shooting now because winter is coming. :)
 
I shoot my 223 out to 600 yards regularly without issues. Wind is always a factor regardless of cartridge. Heavier 308 rounds give you a larger margin of error if you miscall the wind though. I used to shoot 75 grain Hornadys but am testing some new Sierra Tipped Match kings in 77grain as well as the Nosler Custom Comps in 77. There is a minor performance difference that I'm not sure is worth the price. I've never shot out to 800m so can't comment on how much more the 223 will get pushed around at that distance.
 
beeman2 said:
I agree on the 6.5 caliber. I really enjoy shooting my 6.5X47. 3000 fps with a 130 Berger and only 42.2 gr of H4350 is impressive. Run some numbers on the 308 the 223 and a 260,6.5x47 or 6.5 creedmore.
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^This or maybe 6mm BR. Best hitting and easiest I have ever seen at 1000 yards was with this (6mm) finely accurate cartridge. Without any undue punishing recoil forces.

Burn about the same amount of powder as the 223, but with the superior ballistics of the 6BR, and adequate for target shooting.
 
.308 is a wonderful cartridge, capable of real accuracy. But past 500m, it falls behind the 6.5s. At long range the difference in wind drift and elevations is apparent. Compare a .308 154 Scenar @ 2950 with the 6.5 139 Scenar @ 2850.

If you want to go with .223, get a long 1:8 barrel and use 75 and 80 grain VLDs. I found that a .224 Sierra Match King was more affected by wind at 900m than a .308 with 155SMK.
 
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