Looking for a 'New' Rifle.

[Tyler]

As the title says, I'm looking for a new rifle to practice marksmanship with. I already own a .22, so I'd prefer a centre-fire. There are all kinds of rifles out there but I'm having difficulty finding one that meets my needs.

What I want in a rifle:

-Must cost under $400 (maybe $450), new or used. This is non negotiable as I'm a poor student.

-Relatively cheap and available ammo, no odd calibres. Surplus availability is good too. I don't reload yet and I won't for some time, unless someone can point me in the direction of some cheap but good reloading supplies.

-Accurate iron sights out to 200m, 100m at the very least.

-Bolt or semi, either or, I don't care.

-I'm not opposed to a surplus rifle.

-Must be non-restricted

-Good to go 'out of the box', no expensive mods needed.

-NO CHINESE CRAP! (M-305 exluded, of course )

If it's accurate and cheap to buy and feed, I'll take it. Any suggestions?
This is what I've considered so far:

*Lee-Enfield (all marks) Cheap, accurate, but .303 isn't cheap and surplus is rare.

*M1 Garand. I'd spring the extra cash to own one, but once again, .30-06 is expensive and surplus is hard to find.

*Mosin Nagant 1891/30. Seems cheap enough and 7.62x54r seems to be in good supply. How accurate are these things in good shape?

Anything else?

Thanks for any suggestions...

Tyler

EDIT: Ooops... I thought I was in the General thead when I posted this. Can a mod move this? I doubt I'll find any black rifles under $400 bucks.

 

[Grizz Axxemann]

CZ858, Yugo or Russkiy SKS (The Chicoms aren't bad either, just really effing small)

 

[koalorka]

You would not be dissapointed with a Yugo Mauser or a Schmidt Rubin K31. Accurate out to 600 m and the action on the Mauser is simply erotic.

 

[hicaliber]

Stevens 200 in .223, less then $400 new.
Accurate out of the box, .223 is dirt cheap to shoot and easy to find.

 

[cancer]

The black rifle forum mightn't be the best place to look if you want something cheap. Sounds like the milsurp forum is the place you're looking for. I'd recommend a Garand or an Enfield (I love my longbranch) if you want something accurate and historically significant. While ammo isn't overly cheap for these calibres, it really isn't horribly expensive, and it's definitely plentiful. On another note, I would have to say that the cheapest of the non-restricted black rifles would probably be the 858. Though, I'm not sure exactly how much precision you're looking for with your round placement.

 

[HPL]

You would not be dissapointed with a Yugo Mauser or a Schmidt Rubin K31. Accurate out to 600 m and the action on the Mauser is simply erotic.

K31s are as sweet as can be, but good luck finding an inexpensive and steady source of ammo unless you've got reloading gear. But if you do reload, then I'd definitely recommend one because there aren't many finer rifles for the price.

 

[Homesick Alien]

Yugo M59(/66 if you can find one)

All the good things about an SKS but in a very nice package, definitely historically significant, good-to-go in the price range you mentioned. If not for the fact that it was my first rifle that I'll never sell, I'd sell you mine.

See my thread on the CZ 858 if you're thinking that way, but you'll be over the $600 mark more then likely.

If you're a poor student (and I know what that's like) then you want to factor in not just your initial cost but the fact that you're gonna have to pay to shoot this thing. Guaranteed you're not going to find any centrefire gun cheaper to feed then anything in 7.62x39. $170 for 1,120 rounds isn't .22 pricing, but you've already started to price out .303, 30.06 and even 7.62x54r is still significantly more then x39.

Conveniently enough, both of the two I mentioned are in 7.62x39. Both are great guns for the price. See the stickied post at the top to see all sorts of purdy pics and info on the CZ/VZ (8)58 and see below for some pics of how nice a Yugo SKS can really look.

And...$350 will buy you one...

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74836

 

[Tyler]

I'd prefer something accurate enough to punch paper with. An SKS would be great for plinking. Just how accurate are the Yugo SKS's?

 

[Homesick Alien]

'Minute of tin-foil plate' at 100yds? They're not particularily any more accurate then any other SKS - having said that I could pretty consistently hit the 215yd gong that was about a foot wide when the used to have that setup at my range.

You can shut off the gas on the Yugo and work the bolt manually which does improve the accuracy somewhat.

If accuracy's bigger the fun-factor then keep your eye out for one of the Czech bolt-action rifles in 7.62x39. Usually pretty reasonable and very good shooters...

 

[Tyler]

If accuracy's bigger the fun-factor then keep your eye out for one of the Czech bolt-action rifles in 7.62x39. Usually pretty reasonable and very good shooters...

Such as? Are they surplus or CZ?

 

[Steiner]

I think he means the CZ line of bolt action rifles. I saw one for sale (SIR?) a few years ago, and I think the price was around $900 new? I haven't seen any 7.62x39 CZ's since then. I don't think a used one would be that cheap - but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Unregistered]

NO CHINESE CRAP! (M-305 exluded, of course )

If it's accurate and cheap to buy and feed, I'll take it. Any suggestions?
This is what I've considered so far:

*Lee-Enfield (all marks) Cheap, accurate, but .303 isn't cheap and surplus is rare.

*M1 Garand. I'd spring the extra cash to own one, but once again, .30-06 is expensive and surplus is hard to find.

*Mosin Nagant 1891/30. Seems cheap enough and 7.62x54r seems to be in good supply. How accurate are these things in good shape?

I own all the above rifles.

1. The Garand is by far the best. But they are expensive these days (all you really need is a $450-550 "shooter" though). Problem: .30_06 is expensive, there is no surplus, difficult to reload for a Garand, and it needs special 150 grain M2 type ammo. Means high ammunition costs, no plinking, sits in the gun safe.

2. M-305. Compared to a Garand I find it balances like a brick and the manufacturing is crude. However most rifle seem like that in comparison to the almight Garand. The M-305 is my most accurate centrefire military rifle so far. I shot a less than one-inch group a 50 yards and hope to shoot under a 2" group at 100 if I can get my scope mounted properly.

The M-305 is probably your best bet because it is semi-auto, cheap, wide avaliability of parts and magazines (though expensive), good to go out of the box, and fires cheap surplus ammo (less than 50 cents a round.) Infinitely upgradeable if wanted.

3. Lee Enfield is the best military bolt-action in my opinion. Some can be accurate though they are not all like that. 10 rounds in the magazine! Classy rfile. Excellent sights on the No. 4s. Rugged and easy to clean, good for beginners. I figured mine out pretty quick with no instruction manual. Problem: Ammo costs. 303 is expensive. Sometimes you may be lucky and come across some surplus, but it's luck.

4. Mosin-Nagant. Another fun WWII rifle. Cheap, cheap ammo, can get them practically brand-"new." Sometimes accurate but a Russian would need bedding and modding, while the Finns have been factory tuned for mega accuracy. So many you can practically tell the dealer what you want in the rifle. Easy to clean. Problem: Some have "sticking bolt" problem with cheap ammo (like mine) and I haven't had the time or inclination to drive to the range with a drill to fix it. Sights are funny adjusted and often need a bayonet on the end of the rifle for proper zero. Mosins are also really long unless you get a carbine which means recoil and muzzle blast.

BTW: I think mine shoots 3" groups at 100 yards at best. I'll enclose a pic in the next post.

Swedish Mauser 1896: Fine quality, tend to be sighted in for 300 instead of 100 of course, very long though. Ammo is exceedingly costly unless you reload.

Swiss K-31: A very unique and special cool design but I haven't fired mine yet. As one U.S. poster explains, "ammo cost ranges from expensive to heart attack expensive."

So for shooting, I would reccommend an M-1, a Lee Enfield, or an M-14. The Norinco M-14 is the least "classy" but the most "practical."

 

[Unregistered]

All shot by me with commercial or surplus ammo:

Mosin Nagant at 50



Lee Enfield No 1. Mk 3. at 50 yards



M1 Garand at 50



Scoped M-14s at 50



Scoped M-14S at 100

 

[Tyler]

Thanks for the advice, Unregistered.

How about P-14's? I'm told they are more accurate than the average Lee Enfield, is there any truth to this?

 

[Unregistered]

I have been planning on getting a P-14 and there have been some good deals on the forum that I have missed. Reputably, they are a better shooter than most Lee Enfields. That is what most people say. [Get one in good condition that is all-matching, though, or ask for a good shooter.] Lower recoil probably too because of the weight. Built strong so you don't worry about KBs. Only problem is that they suffer from the ammo cost disadvantage. You either get it in .303 or .30_06, I think, right?

There is also those Yugo Mausers. But 8mm is expensive right now, and let me tell you, recoil is stout compared to most other full-size milsurps. Canadaammo says they might be bringing in some 8mm surplus though.

SKSs are good for some beginner shooters if they are not up to shooting the SKS to its full capability yet. A cheap way to learn shooting with a real centrefire. A good SKS without corrosion damage should be able to group 3-4" at 100 yards with surplus ammo. The new VZ rifles are said to get decent accuracy as well - see the threat in this forum. If true, this would be a very fun way to learn shooting. They are not tack drivers though.

As for the Mosin, I used to think it would be the perfect training rifle because of the cheap but adequately-accurate ammo and rifle combination and low muzzle-flash and recoil with a butt-pad on the full-size rifle. But that is only true if you have it zeroed without the bayonet and without the sticky-bolt problem. Otherwise you will look like an idiot at the range with a 6 foot long rifle and bayonet hammering on the bolt to open it after it freezes from cheap lacquered-steel cased ammo.

Now, all this being said, the best thing for you to do if you really honestly want to learn how to shoot is to get a Stevens 200 in .223 or something similar. The ammo will be cheap, recoil is low or non-existent, accuracy is high. Same for the myriad of CZ rifles, Tikka, etc... A flat-shooting affordable rifle is what you want to eliminate all the other variables (rainbow trajectories, gas action differences, strange stocks and sights, etc...)

But we both know that shooting a Savage will be like watching paint dry because you'll just keep putting bullets in the same place...right? That is why the milsurp calibers are more interesting. I think the K-31 is probably the best combination between accuracy and military surplus fun, but it is also the most expensive to shoot.

 

[HPL]

I have been planning on getting a P-14 and there have been some good deals on the forum that I have missed. Reputably, they are a better shooter than most Lee Enfields. That is what most people say. [Get one in good condition that is all-matching, though, or ask for a good shooter.] Lower recoil probably too because of the weight. Built strong so you don't worry about KBs. Only problem is that they suffer from the ammo cost disadvantage. You either get it in .303 or .30_06, I think, right?

What you say about the P-14 is true. It's a very nice shooter, even better than the Lee-Enfield. The action is like butter and the rifle feels more solid than an Enfield.

Regardless of whether you get one in .303 British or 30-06, you should consider getting into reloading because decent factory ammo in either calibre isn't cheap.

 

[Tyler]

Regardless of whether you get one in .303 British or 30-06, you should consider getting into reloading because decent factory ammo in either calibre isn't cheap.

How much would a bare-bones, basic reloading set-up cost me? Nothing elaborate, just enough to get the job done for one calibre.

 

[HPL]

How much would a bare-bones, basic reloading set-up cost me? Nothing elaborate, just enough to get the job done for one calibre.

The Lee Anniversary Kit, a set of dies and a tumbler shouldn't be too bad. You could probably get up and running for around $200 to $300. It sounds like a sizeable investment but if you're shooting something like .303 British, it won't take long to recover the investment and you'll have a lot more fun at the range because you'll be able to bring, say, 50 or 100 rounds to the range instead of one box of 20.

If you don't want to put that amount of money into a reloading setup right away, at the very least you can buy factory ammo and keep the cases until you do decide to start reloading.

 

[Unregistered]

I shouldn't be telling you this but the latest Canadian Access to Firearms says that the Canadian Tire Store in Kenora is selling an "accurized" Winchester P14 full wood in .303 for $500.00.

 

[Tyler]

I shouldn't be telling you this but the latest Canadian Access to Firearms says that the Canadian Tire Store in Kenora is selling an "accurized" Winchester P14 full wood in .303 for $500.00.

Thanks, but Kenora is about a 20 hour drive and a time-zone away for me. Think North Bay, not Thunder Bay.

Cambodian Tire still sells guns? WTF?

If you don't want to put that amount of money into a reloading setup right away, at the very least you can buy factory ammo and keep the cases until you do decide to start reloading.

Sounds like a good idea.

The more I read about it the more I like the P-14. I'm feeling the urge for a new purchase, and I get paid at the end of the moth.

Sweet.