Specifically, which ones are antique, and which ones aren't? I understand these don't have a specific ser # range that is antique. However the FRT lists some as antique and some not, without giving any specifics about how to tell which one are which and why. Can anyone help? What do I need to look for to make sure the one I purchase falls under our pre'98 requirements?
Looking for detailed Colt 3rd model Derringer info
- Thread starter 8 ball
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As Colt provided the info openly in the long ago past many websites offer the same service for Colt guns and include sometimes other models and serial number ranges than Colt's site does. A simple search will revel them.
Good luck
Moe
Good luck
Moe
In many hour of searching I have found nothing online that pertains to Colt 3rd model Derringers date of production by ser number. If your google fu is better than mine I would appreciate what anyone could tell me about a date of manufacture for ser # 13945.
Some proof marks would be good if available. I see the roadblock you speak of. I have encountered this before and have sometimes pulled it off. Will look deeper over the week. Don't give up. My early estimate is late 1880's. It's only an estimate. I need to look into production rates.
Cheers
Moe
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There's one on Gunbroker right now with a start of $649 (US) and no bids (bare brass, not great shape) serial number 14472 ... antique. Now, that's USA Antique (before 1899) ... but I'm with Moe here, 45000 made by 1912, starting in 1875 ... 22 years of antiques, and 15 years of 12(7) eligible guns. On balance of probability alone, you have an 1880s gun.
Find a few more, print them all, and you have a good argument. It doesn't hurt to do some simple research of what people who are selling them, say. And there are LOTS of these guns for sale.
RCMP must have a serial number threshold somewhere in the FRT, or a technician will tell you. You could ask if you can import the one for sale on Gunbroker now (probably won't sell and will get relisted) and ... you'll probably get an "antique" finding for that serial number. Given that, it's after your serial number, hey presto! Antique.
It's still hard to imagine they don't have a "serial numbers below" comment somewhere in the FRT. Just give it a few dozen more hours ... or maybe someone here knows what number shows the highest antique serial?
Find a few more, print them all, and you have a good argument. It doesn't hurt to do some simple research of what people who are selling them, say. And there are LOTS of these guns for sale.
RCMP must have a serial number threshold somewhere in the FRT, or a technician will tell you. You could ask if you can import the one for sale on Gunbroker now (probably won't sell and will get relisted) and ... you'll probably get an "antique" finding for that serial number. Given that, it's after your serial number, hey presto! Antique.
It's still hard to imagine they don't have a "serial numbers below" comment somewhere in the FRT. Just give it a few dozen more hours ... or maybe someone here knows what number shows the highest antique serial?
The Colt serial number lookup sure has changed! Sad that there are no derringers and I'm sure plenty of others missing. 40 guns for your serial number, and none of them yours!
Hopefully this will help:
USA Antique Colt Third Model serial 26,545, made in 1898 and pre-1899 ... the seller will write that down for you (hoping of course you'll buy that gun) Jerry Pownall of Barboursville Arms in Virginnia (540) 207-0597.
The 1897 approximate last gun serial number is 26,400, at an estimated production of 1200 guns per year. About 100 per month, adds up to 44,400 in 37 years. Make the number 102 or 103 and you have the highest known/offered for sale serial numbers. The final year saw a flurry of left-over parts assembled. RCMP FRT claims 49,000 were made, but it's hard to find serial numbers beyond the mid-45,000s and those are all reported by their sellers to be "some of the last of the model", often made up of a mix of parts from previous versions of the Third Model, and made in 1912.
For a definitive expert, recognized in numerous reference works since 1965, contact LeRoy Merz of Merz Antique Guns in Minnesota (218) 739-3255. He might be persuaded to do a quick appraisal that would be worth something, though I have no clue what it would cost. There is probably no Colt Letter possible, and since the last price I was quoted for letter for an antique Colt was $200 US, I would suggest that a definitive expert appraisal would be worth up to $200.
There is some modest risk in applying for the RCMP Antique Letter, since they could always say, "not antique". Hence, you should have an appraisal, or at least documentation of other guns for sale and the opinion of other dealers and experts.
The RCMP want to maintain that there is no way to link the serial number of your antique firearm to a date of manufacture, from Colt's records, and thus establish antiquity. Meanwhile, there are thousands of estates which have left behind document collections, in which records of purchase of this nice little derringer (and everything else they bought and kept bills for) exist. Reasonably affluent and sometimes important people bought these guns, which were not cheap, the serial number is listed on their bill of sale, and that bill of sale is now in a museum or collection of papers at a Library. This is another reason to be excited about the digitization of document collections, since these documents will definitely show when people bought which serial numbers.
I think we can all agree that a gun sold in the late 1800s was made before it was sold on the date of the bill of sale, so, we will have some absolute dates. I'll start looking ...
Hopefully this will help:
USA Antique Colt Third Model serial 26,545, made in 1898 and pre-1899 ... the seller will write that down for you (hoping of course you'll buy that gun) Jerry Pownall of Barboursville Arms in Virginnia (540) 207-0597.
The 1897 approximate last gun serial number is 26,400, at an estimated production of 1200 guns per year. About 100 per month, adds up to 44,400 in 37 years. Make the number 102 or 103 and you have the highest known/offered for sale serial numbers. The final year saw a flurry of left-over parts assembled. RCMP FRT claims 49,000 were made, but it's hard to find serial numbers beyond the mid-45,000s and those are all reported by their sellers to be "some of the last of the model", often made up of a mix of parts from previous versions of the Third Model, and made in 1912.
For a definitive expert, recognized in numerous reference works since 1965, contact LeRoy Merz of Merz Antique Guns in Minnesota (218) 739-3255. He might be persuaded to do a quick appraisal that would be worth something, though I have no clue what it would cost. There is probably no Colt Letter possible, and since the last price I was quoted for letter for an antique Colt was $200 US, I would suggest that a definitive expert appraisal would be worth up to $200.
There is some modest risk in applying for the RCMP Antique Letter, since they could always say, "not antique". Hence, you should have an appraisal, or at least documentation of other guns for sale and the opinion of other dealers and experts.
The RCMP want to maintain that there is no way to link the serial number of your antique firearm to a date of manufacture, from Colt's records, and thus establish antiquity. Meanwhile, there are thousands of estates which have left behind document collections, in which records of purchase of this nice little derringer (and everything else they bought and kept bills for) exist. Reasonably affluent and sometimes important people bought these guns, which were not cheap, the serial number is listed on their bill of sale, and that bill of sale is now in a museum or collection of papers at a Library. This is another reason to be excited about the digitization of document collections, since these documents will definitely show when people bought which serial numbers.
I think we can all agree that a gun sold in the late 1800s was made before it was sold on the date of the bill of sale, so, we will have some absolute dates. I'll start looking ...
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I forgot to mention, I too have a nice gold-washed example of the Colt Third Model derringer, and am interested in manufacture dates. It probably isn't a factory finish, but it's lovely. I'll put up a picture as soon as I figure out who is hosting my photos now...
One of the best sites for a bit of positive, independent affirmation of what the US experts are saying is Museums Victoria, in Victoria, Australia.
They have several of the Colt Third Model derringers in their collection and publish web pages stating:
Serial number 12560 is circa 1885 https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/834246
Serial number 26220 is circa 1895 https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/368470
If we accept RCMP's assertion of 49000 made (better than 45000) we get an average of 1325 units per year over 37 years of production, or a similar value as the Meseum:
1880 approx. 6625
1885 approx. 13250
1890 approx. 19875
1895 approx. 26500
This suggests the upper limit for antiquity by serial number is around 28000 ... and with further research, we should be able to find when a serial number in that range was sold. Ideally, a bill of sale from January of 1898, if anyone out there has one in a desk drawer.
One of the best sites for a bit of positive, independent affirmation of what the US experts are saying is Museums Victoria, in Victoria, Australia.
They have several of the Colt Third Model derringers in their collection and publish web pages stating:
Serial number 12560 is circa 1885 https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/834246
Serial number 26220 is circa 1895 https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/368470
If we accept RCMP's assertion of 49000 made (better than 45000) we get an average of 1325 units per year over 37 years of production, or a similar value as the Meseum:
1880 approx. 6625
1885 approx. 13250
1890 approx. 19875
1895 approx. 26500
This suggests the upper limit for antiquity by serial number is around 28000 ... and with further research, we should be able to find when a serial number in that range was sold. Ideally, a bill of sale from January of 1898, if anyone out there has one in a desk drawer.
gunzik, some good info! Here is what i have managed to find over a few days of research.
1. The actual start production date is not carved in stone. Some sources list as early as 1870, some as late as 1875. I have seen photos of Colt advertising that was dated 1872 showing pictures of first Variation guns so some at least were made by then. All sources list 1912 as last year of production.
2. There are 3 (or 4) variations of the Colt 3rd model Derringer, depending on how you count variations. I will list them here as they are normally referred to by collectors.
1 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, First Variation,
Also called the "pregnant frame" model with the swivel bolster, high straight hammer, and short tightly curved grip. Serial #'s 1-2199 2,199 of this version produced.
2 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Second Variation,
Same as above, with the high straight hammer and short tightly curved grip, but without the "pregnant frame" swivel bolster. Serial #'s 2200-24000 21,800 of this version produced
3 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Transition Model (also called Third Variation Model by a very few collectors)
This has the sloped, slightly more curved hammer of the later production guns that come after it, but has the shorter tightly curled grips still. Not very common with Serial #'s 25000 -27000 2,000 of this version produced
4 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Third Variation (also called Fourth Variation by a very few collectors)
This is the Colt 3rd model that most of us are familiar with, sloped hammer and more open curved grip. NOTE, serial numbers for these guns are all their own!!!! Serial #'s start at 1 again and go to 45000. 45,000 of this version produced
If the above numbers are correct, this makes a total production number of 70,999. This is very important information to know, as there will be (Very likely) 2 guns of the same serial number of most numbers up to 27,000. This becomes very important as we start looking at serial numbers spanning the 23,000 to 27,000 range as there "could" be guns with identical serial numbers some of which are antique and some of which are not!
Knowing for a fact from Colts own advertising that these guns were made at least as early as 1872 gives us a 40 year production window. If we divide our 70,999 guns over our 40 years we get about 1775 guns per year. 1775 guns per year x 12 years that are post 1897= 21,300 post 1897 guns, give or take of course. This gives us a serial number upper limit of about 23700 for antique status. This of course is all rough guestimation. If the links listed above are more substantiated, 28,000 would be a better upper limit.
1. The actual start production date is not carved in stone. Some sources list as early as 1870, some as late as 1875. I have seen photos of Colt advertising that was dated 1872 showing pictures of first Variation guns so some at least were made by then. All sources list 1912 as last year of production.
2. There are 3 (or 4) variations of the Colt 3rd model Derringer, depending on how you count variations. I will list them here as they are normally referred to by collectors.
1 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, First Variation,
Also called the "pregnant frame" model with the swivel bolster, high straight hammer, and short tightly curved grip. Serial #'s 1-2199 2,199 of this version produced.
2 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Second Variation,
Same as above, with the high straight hammer and short tightly curved grip, but without the "pregnant frame" swivel bolster. Serial #'s 2200-24000 21,800 of this version produced
3 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Transition Model (also called Third Variation Model by a very few collectors)
This has the sloped, slightly more curved hammer of the later production guns that come after it, but has the shorter tightly curled grips still. Not very common with Serial #'s 25000 -27000 2,000 of this version produced
4 Colt 3rd Model Derringer, Third Variation (also called Fourth Variation by a very few collectors)
This is the Colt 3rd model that most of us are familiar with, sloped hammer and more open curved grip. NOTE, serial numbers for these guns are all their own!!!! Serial #'s start at 1 again and go to 45000. 45,000 of this version produced
If the above numbers are correct, this makes a total production number of 70,999. This is very important information to know, as there will be (Very likely) 2 guns of the same serial number of most numbers up to 27,000. This becomes very important as we start looking at serial numbers spanning the 23,000 to 27,000 range as there "could" be guns with identical serial numbers some of which are antique and some of which are not!
Knowing for a fact from Colts own advertising that these guns were made at least as early as 1872 gives us a 40 year production window. If we divide our 70,999 guns over our 40 years we get about 1775 guns per year. 1775 guns per year x 12 years that are post 1897= 21,300 post 1897 guns, give or take of course. This gives us a serial number upper limit of about 23700 for antique status. This of course is all rough guestimation. If the links listed above are more substantiated, 28,000 would be a better upper limit.
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Nice work! Good to know.
In addition, I would say we have to accept that the demand for a simple, single shot, highly concealable derringer would be much higher in the last half of the 19th century than the beginning of the 20th. It would be reasonable to argue a higher production rate earlier, and lower production and sales rate later. There are several other examples of guns over-produced before 1898 and then the backlog sold new into the next Century.
Sadly, the existing Colt sales and production documentation for this period is sitting in a library vault, donated by Pratt & Whitney when they bought Colt in the 1950s. This would be where some of the serial number / date information got to, and the papers were last looked at in the 1980s. There is a general description of "what's in each box", but no microfilm, which in turn would be easy to digitize and put online for our reading pleasure. The library and details showed up early in my search of "Colt Documents" ... but again, there will be paperwork from estates, retailers, and who knows who else, tucked away in various libraries and document collections.
In addition, I would say we have to accept that the demand for a simple, single shot, highly concealable derringer would be much higher in the last half of the 19th century than the beginning of the 20th. It would be reasonable to argue a higher production rate earlier, and lower production and sales rate later. There are several other examples of guns over-produced before 1898 and then the backlog sold new into the next Century.
Sadly, the existing Colt sales and production documentation for this period is sitting in a library vault, donated by Pratt & Whitney when they bought Colt in the 1950s. This would be where some of the serial number / date information got to, and the papers were last looked at in the 1980s. There is a general description of "what's in each box", but no microfilm, which in turn would be easy to digitize and put online for our reading pleasure. The library and details showed up early in my search of "Colt Documents" ... but again, there will be paperwork from estates, retailers, and who knows who else, tucked away in various libraries and document collections.
I would very much tend to agree with this. There is a reason after all that Colt stopped making them. Surely not due to booming sales!
