Looking for some advice from TR shooters regards to iron sights

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Tikka223

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I posted this in the rimfire section but I suspect there are more experts on this part of the forum.

So I'm looking for a .22lr that I can use for offhand plinking with iron sights ... but PRECISION is key. I like both the CZ 452 and 455 and I'm trying to make a choice. Thus far I'm leaning towards the 452 (if I can ever find one) simply because it seems to have better iron sights and because the longer barrel (24" vs 20") should allow for more precise aiming. Am I on the money here? I'm assuming TR shooters use 30" barrels for a reason.

I am considering an aftermarket aperture sight that installs on the receiver and would allow an even greater distance between front post and rear sight. Is there an optimal or minimum length? Is the 24" barrel the best option or can the 20" barrel be made to do the same?

Am I making sense?
 
TR shooters don't use a post front sight. Apertures front and back, now a days. 28-30+ inch barrels are used for two reasons. One is to get the most velocity and the other is to get the front sight out where you can focus on it. Younger eyes can focus back and forth between the rear sight, front sight and target and back the the front sight quicker than old eyes. Sights for long range are usually set up so 1 click=~1/4 moa. Smallbore sights, at least on my Anshutz are set up so that one click=1/6 of a minute and they turn the opposite direction (FML)
 
Tikka223 you are young enough that you will successfully be able to shoot with a shorter sight radius than shooters in their 40s+. (older eyes lose their ability to accommodate, so you can no longer hold your front sight and your target image in simultaneous focus).

Last fall I spent an enjoyable afternoon at the local range with a friend, doing some offhand plinking with a 7mmRemMag with iron sights, a kind of shooting I rarely get to do (and ohmigosh do I suck at offhand!!). This rifle had good hunting iron sights, which is to say it had a coarse well defined front post and a coarse well defined rear notch sight located a fair on the barrel a fair bit in front of the receiver (i.e. being 'far' away like this meant you had a decent chance of seeing the rear sight clearly enough to be able to use it). We shot offhand at 100m, 200m 300m and then 500m, and it was remarkable how effective and rewarding that shooting was.

You can shoot well and get a lot out of a rifle with good coarse notch-and-post iron sights.

If you want to use a rear aperture instead, you can of course do that too. It's a different way of sighting, in that your rear sight focus is no longer an issue, but you use several other techniques in order to accurately locate your eye position. You can shoot with a post front sight or you can shoot with an aperture. Both have their own advantages and drawbacks. In a very stable position (e.g. prone with a sling) a front aperture is clearly an advantage, however offhand where you move a lot (at least I do), there are good things to be said about each. Because a front post is an asymmetrical aiming system it does have more quirks that a front aperture (e.g. light levels can affect your POI) but that's just part of the bundle of tradeoffs.

If you want you're more than welcome to borrow my Anschutz .22 and get an impression of what you do/don't like about a 26"-ish heavy .22. It has a rear aperture, and I have a variety of front sight elements for it that you could go through (apertures, posts etc).

If you haven't shot an iron-sighted AR15 before, you should shoot mine and get an impression of its sight picture. Its barrel is 20" but its front sight is even closer than that. With young enough eyes you can keep the front post sharp and you can aim it and break shots nearly as well as with a longer sight radius. It would be a good way for you to assess what sight radius you need at this point.

One thing in common with all the kinds of rifle shooting I have done is sight picture and trigger control. Any experience you gain in these in one kind of rifle shooting will almost certainly help you in all the other kinds of rifle shooting you do. For instance, even though I clearly suck at offhand shooting, I have enough experience in seeing and assessing sight pictures, and also knowing how to break a trigger properly and knowing if/how I did not, that when I try a bit of offhand shooting I am able to self-assess my errors fairly well.

BTW pretty much any rifle with a good readable trigger and big fat easy to see sights, will be an asset to your shooting.
 
I have a 452 with Anschutz aperture sights that I have been shooting with in practice. I found it necessary to use a riser block under the front globe sight. Unless you want a magazine fed rifle, an Anschutz/CIL 190 might be a solution to your quest. Being at the other end of the country makes it difficult for you to try each of these.
Daniel's offer is generous and it will definitely give you an idea of what can be done with irons.
 
Much appreciated Daniel! I've fired a few rounds through an Anchutz last summer and it had both the rear and front apertures. I managed to get a pretty good group at 50m but I really don't think they would be ideal for plinking and they take a fair amount of concentration, but maybe that's only because I wasn't use to them. As for the battle rifle style irons, I have some on my SR-22 (rear aperture with H&K style front post) but I find that the top rail just isn't long enought to get an accurate sight picture. The AR15 irons may work a lot better, I'll have to check that out.

As for the shooting style, I'm really looking for an all-rounder, range / camp / gravel pit plinker ... but accurate so I can show up my friends;)
 
I have two Savage Mk IIs with peep sights on them. Both have 21" factory barrels. One has a tech sight, a rear aperture with front post. It's really fun to shoot, especially at the reactive targets, but the post is challenging to line up on the SFC sporting rifle targets. The other has a Williams FP Target rear sight with a Merit #3 adjustable iris and a 18mm globe front sight with Slimline inserts. It's a pleasure to shoot and the short sight radius is just fine to work with. A longer barrel would probably push the 4kg sporting rifle weight limit anyway.
 
I had a set of aperture sights on a .22lr Martini I owned not long ago. At 50 yds I could group as well as my .22lr Savage semiauto which had a 3 - 9 scope on it!!

At 100 yds I could do the same on a good day.

I find sight alignment with aperture sights is much easier than with standard iron sights. Quality aperture sight sets have interchangeable front inserts and some have adjustable rear openings, so you can select the sight that works best for your eyes.
For quick off hand shots I would insert a smaller dia. front insert and if the rear has the ability, a larger rear opening. The opposite set up (larger dia. front with smaller rear opening), would work better for long range slow fire accuracy.

The nicest aperture sights I've used/seen are the sight sets that come with the like of the Anschutz rifles.

I know a fellow that had a F&R set of new Anschutz aperture sights he was thinking of selling a while back. If you are interested I can contact him to see if he still has them. Shoot me a pm if you have any interest.
 
Tikka223 said:
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As for the shooting style, I'm really looking for an all-rounder, range / camp / gravel pit plinker ... but accurate so I can show up my friends;)
Click to expand...

All due respect, you may be looking for a 'do all' rifle which you're not likely to find. And there's no substitute for time behind the butt of gun. I have seen some tremendous shooting by individuals with second rate equipment - don't think the rifle is going to do the job for you.
 
Very true, however you need to know what you are working with in the first place. If I know a given rifle can shoot sun MOA in perfect conditions, ex off a rest and bag with no wind, then I have a baseline. If I then take that same rifle out to the range and only manage a 3 MOA group then I know the problem lies with me. There is nothing more frustrating than chasing a wandering POI all over a target and then stop to wonder: is it my scope? Are the mounts tight enough? Is the stock flexing? Is it the actions screws? Etc.
 
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