Looking for some info on a Parker Hale and Win mod 70.

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Howdy,

Just wondering if anyone could share some information or stories about these two rifles.

First one is a minty Winchester model 70 target model in .308 with a heavy barrel. It was won in a shooting competition in Winnipeg in 1972. It’s sporting a fancy red field rear sight. Looks really well made and seems to be for a certain type of competition shooting that I know nothing about. Doesn’t look like it’s ever been fired.

Second is an old Parker Hale target model in .308, same features as the first one but I’m unsure of the brand of sight on it. And it’s seen use. Any info on these guys would be greatly appreciated! When I did some searching all I found was links to auction sites.

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The Parker Hale appears to be a 1200TX repeater, target style with the sights and handstop. Possibly has been rebarreled at some point as the original barrel would likely have been Mauser style with the stepped shoulder. The rear sight is the Parker Hale 5E sight made for 1200TX receivers. Typically very accurate and reliable rifle. Nice find.

Sorry, can't help with the Mod 70.
 
The Parker Hale - as per Post #2 - with Parker Hale sights. I have one marked on top of barrel as made for the 1969 Palma Trophy Competition - was held at Connaught Ranges near Ottawa that year - PH made up 60 of them for that shoot. The barrel on this one is heavy - as shown in your pictures. I have read that this 7.62 NATO 1200 TX was the basis for the Canadian C3 military sniper rifle - all of which were "re-done" by Parker Hale to become the Canadian C3A1 rifle. Many of the C3 parts were then used on orders to Parker Hale by Central America countries.

Inspect the rear sight on that PH 1200 TX closely - on rear face of the horizontal cross bar, this one has stamped "PH5B2" - the "2" is in a taller font - as if added to the first part - I had presumed that was the model number of that Parker Hale rear sight. The rear face of the mount block - facing the shooter - says "Parker Hale Made in England". The sight mounting body has an extension and leg / foot - so that rear sight mounts into what could be used as rear scope base holes - same spacing, etc. as the PH 28 rear scope mount base. As received, this sight had a PH60 eye piece installed - is six choices of aperture size within that eye piece. Is hard to tell from your picture, but seems as if there is no eyepiece installed?

In the book "The History and Records of the Palma Match" by Colin C. C. Cheshire - page 4.128 - says that the PH rifles used in 1969 were equipped with Parker Hale "582" rear sights - the "B" possibly being misread as an "8" - and that the front sight was PH 5M 159. I can not find any marking on this front sight at all - it fits correctly to the base on the rifle barrel, but has no markings, not even the PH logo.

I have tried to ID the shooter of this rifle in that 1969 shoot - no luck, but I have corresponded with a fellow who is son of one of the Canadian shooters that year, who still has the PH 1200 TX rifle that his Dad shot at that competition - except for mods that some subsequent owner made to the butt plate on this one, the pictures of his and mine appear to be identical - so is two known to me, out of the original 60 made for that shoot. No doubt hundreds or thousands more were made for other purposes.

As per Post #2 - I can not help about that Model 70 - I believe similar was used in Palma shoots in USA in 1968 at Camp Perry - but likely were also used many other places and purposes. That book mentioned above says the Win Model 70 used in that 1968 shoot were equipped with Redfield aperture sight, and were stamped "Palma Trophy Match" on top of the barrel. For some reason - perhaps some types of competitions(?) those target Win 70 had a "charger slot" cut into the top of the rear bridge - as if charger re-loading was used? I also had a gunsmithing book from that era, that included a template for cutting that slot into a "normal" Win 70 receiver. Is interesting to see on those two rifles that they might have had different thoughts about using a shooting sling, or how to "sling up" - is possible that the "hand stop" on that Win 70 might be installed backwards in those pictures ?? But I have never competed, so that might be a perfectly acceptable arrangement, as is?

You might want to appreciate that in those days, a "Palma Trophy Competition" was shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yard bullseye targets, with those rifles - for many years using ammunition provided by the host country, as were the rifles. Is done differently these days, I read. But, was no artificial rests (so no sandbags or bipods) and no optics - no scope. There are several Palma shooters, former Team Captains and Team Coaches that regularly post to CGN. If I am in error, I am sure to be corrected shortly, I would expect.
 
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Potashminer pretty well nailed it. Rifles and ammo was supplied by the host country for Palma Competitions. I had a friend (now passed) that shot on the Palma team in Perry and he told me at the end of the competition they could purchase the rifles through the Canadian Winchester Rep. The cost was something like $150. I think I recall him saying that of all the rifles that were issued to the team only about 4 were good enough for the actual team match.

The handstop on the top rifle is on backwards. You likely wouldn't see either if these rifle on the line at a Target Rifle event these days. However they would be a pretty good choice as an entry level rifle for someone starting out shooting Target Rifle.
 
The Parker Hale appears to be a 1200TX repeater, target style with the sights and handstop. Possibly has been rebarreled at some point as the original barrel would likely have been Mauser style with the stepped shoulder. The rear sight is the Parker Hale 5E sight made for 1200TX receivers. Typically very accurate and reliable rifle. Nice find.

Sorry, can't help with the Mod 70.

Thank you sir! You nailed it. 1200tx, beauty! It is well made and shot good enough to win the model 70 I guess! So there’s that haha.
Upon reading up on the model, I see that guys will use them now to build replica C3 sniper rifles, neat history!
 
Thanks Potashminer!

That’s very helpful! I will take a look at the rear sight this evening. I love the history there and it’s relation to the C3 and C3A1.

I find it fascinating that they would engage targets at those distances with open sights on a .308! Paddy told me that fellas had bunkers under the targets are used a flagging system to indicate scores/hits. Pretty wild times, imagine, a government providing ammunition for sport shooting! :) I wish!!


The Parker Hale - as per Post #2 - with Parker Hale sights. I have one marked on top of barrel as made for the 1969 Palma Trophy Competition - was held at Connaught Ranges near Ottawa that year - PH made up 60 of them for that shoot. The barrel on this one is heavy - as shown in your pictures. I have read that this 7.62 NATO 1200 TX was the basis for the Canadian C3 military sniper rifle - all of which were "re-done" by Parker Hale to become the Canadian C3A1 rifle. Many of the C3 parts were then used on orders to Parker Hale by Central America countries.


Inspect the rear sight on that PH 1200 TX closely - on rear face of the horizontal cross bar, this one has stamped "PH5B2" - the "2" is in a taller font - as if added to the first part - I had presumed that was the model number of that Parker Hale rear sight. The rear face of the mount block - facing the shooter - says "Parker Hale Made in England". The sight mounting body has an extension and leg / foot - so that rear sight mounts into what could be used as rear scope base holes - same spacing, etc. as the PH 28 rear scope mount base. As received, this sight had a PH60 eye piece installed - is six choices of aperture size within that eye piece. Is hard to tell from your picture, but seems as if there is no eyepiece installed?

In the book "The History and Records of the Palma Match" by Colin C. C. Cheshire - page 4.128 - says that the PH rifles used in 1969 were equipped with Parker Hale "582" rear sights - the "B" possibly being misread as an "8" - and that the front sight was PH 5M 159. I can not find any marking on this front sight at all - it fits correctly to the base on the rifle barrel, but has no markings, not even the PH logo.

I have tried to ID the shooter of this rifle in that 1969 shoot - no luck, but I have corresponded with a fellow who is son of one of the Canadian shooters that year, who still has the PH 1200 TX rifle that his Dad shot at that competition - except for mods that some subsequent owner made to the butt plate on this one, the pictures of his and mine appear to be identical - so is two known to me, out of the original 60 made for that shoot. No doubt hundreds or thousands more were made for other purposes.

As per Post #2 - I can not help about that Model 70 - I believe similar was used in Palma shoots in USA in 1968 at Camp Perry - but likely were also used many other places and purposes. That book mentioned above says the Win Model 70 used in that 1968 shoot were equipped with Redfield aperture sight, and were stamped "Palma Trophy Match" on top of the barrel. For some reason - perhaps some types of competitions(?) those target Win 70 had a "charger slot" cut into the top of the rear bridge - as if charger re-loading was used? I also had a gunsmithing book from that era, that included a template for cutting that slot into a "normal" Win 70 receiver. Is interesting to see on those two rifles that they might have had different thoughts about using a shooting sling, or how to "sling up" - is possible that the "hand stop" on that Win 70 might be installed backwards in those pictures ?? But I have never competed, so that might be a perfectly acceptable arrangement, as is?

You might want to appreciate that in those days, a "Palma Trophy Competition" was shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yard bullseye targets, with those rifles - for many years using ammunition provided by the host country, as were the rifles. Is done differently these days, I read. But, was no artificial rests (so no sandbags or bipods) and no optics - no scope. There are several Palma shooters, former Team Captains and Team Coaches that regularly post to CGN. If I am in error, I am sure to be corrected shortly, I would expect.
 
The PH is a 1200 TX as mentioned. Designed for Palma shooting. I have one, more accurate than me most days. The Win 70 is the US version of same I would say. I've been looking for one if you want to sell it. - dan

Howdy Dan, they will both likely end up being listed on the EE soon. Shoot me a message if you want to beat me to listing it.
 
Thanks Maynard! Different era for sure, I would have loved to partake in events like that!

Good eye, I don’t think either have been out for anything but cleaning for a few decades now. Might have gone on backwards after a session.

Potashminer pretty well nailed it. Rifles and ammo was supplied by the host country for Palma Competitions. I had a friend (now passed) that shot on the Palma team in Perry and he told me at the end of the competition they could purchase the rifles through the Canadian Winchester Rep. The cost was something like $150. I think I recall him saying that of all the rifles that were issued to the team only about 4 were good enough for the actual team match.

The handstop on the top rifle is on backwards. You likely wouldn't see either if these rifle on the line at a Target Rifle event these days. However they would be a pretty good choice as an entry level rifle for someone starting out shooting Target Rifle.
 
Thanks Potashminer!

That’s very helpful! I will take a look at the rear sight this evening. I love the history there and it’s relation to the C3 and C3A1.

I find it fascinating that they would engage targets at those distances with open sights on a .308! Paddy told me that fellas had bunkers under the targets are used a flagging system to indicate scores/hits. Pretty wild times, imagine, a government providing ammunition for sport shooting! :) I wish!!

Is much done in "old days" that would probably raise an eyebrow or two these days - I am quite certain that I saw a picture / portrait of Queen Victoria of England firing first shot at a long range competition at Bisley, in England - like such involvement by a head of state (anywhere!) in shooting sports would occur today!!

From somewhere, I read the PALMA competition ended up to be at pretty much the ultimate useful "aimed fire" range of the 7.62 NATO - at least the more or less standard NATO ammo commonly used in military service rifles at the time - tended to be dropping below super-sonic - became (a LOT) about reading the wind, to win. As time went on, some "Palma" competition rifles were developed - often with longer than normal barrels; tighter than normal bores - to try to "squeeze" a bit more performance out of the NATO spec ammo that they used. I have such a barrel made by Schultz and Larsen that was pre-threaded / pre-chambered to screw onto an M1917 receiver, which it did without drama - S&L and others made similar for various other more or less common milsurp actions from those days. Such barrels were pre-machined for a "clamp on" front sight base - the one that I assembled has an AJP "Twin Zero" 3-53 rear sight - is no doubt a "cruder" rifle than the PH 1200 TX, which as you read above, is likely no longer even competitive today.

Palma was also a "team" score - so while there was individual awards, I think, the Palma Trophy went to the team (the country) with best total score. Can read various "games" occurred - USA decided one year to provide 180 grain bullets - that no other country had practiced with that weight at those ranges. One year the Canadian Team came up with idea to use a rubber band around a somewhat "loose" rear sight - to stabilize it - was viewed by some others as "cheating", I guess. A CGN member was Team Captain the year Canada won the Palma Trophy in New Mexico, USA (EDIT - old guy's memory - book says Canada won Silver (second place) to Great Britain that year - 1992) - it was at that shoot that an "official" decision was made to limit the bullet weight to 155 grains. Probably resulted in so much effort by Sierra to produce the Sierra #2156 Palma bullet - which has apparently succeeded in replacing Sierra's previous #2155 Palma bullet - it has a carefully researched boat tail and ogive angle / shape - is alleged to fly very similar to their 175 grain Match King bullet, although more or less 20 grains lighter.
 
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Thanks Maynard! Different era for sure, I would have loved to partake in events like that!

Good eye, I don’t think either have been out for anything but cleaning for a few decades now. Might have gone on backwards after a session.

These events are still taking place. The next Palma is in South Africa in 2024. I see you are from the Praries, They shoot in Alberta, Sask and Manitoba. Check out you Provincial Rifle Association. On a National Level there are Target Rifle events held in Ottawa every Aug (except for the war years and COVID) , check out the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association. Canadian Teams usually compete in Bisley UK every year also (again except for war years and COVID). So there is places to get involved in this type of shooting.
 
To follow along from maynard's post - I think the Palma Trophy is just one of several trophies awarded within the Target Rifle discipline. Is no longer done as per "old days" - a country would send a team of shooters - by lottery, on the day before the competition, a draw was made for which rifle goes to which shooter - then on day (s) of the competition, all shooters drew ammo from the same crate - rifles and ammo initially provided by the host country. For example, there is a notation in that Cheshire book that 7.62 mm Ball CL, Lot 453, DAQ64 was used at the 1969 shoot, with those Parker Hale 1200 TX rifles, by ALL shooters.

Shooters usually had the option to purchase the rifle that they competed with - some chose to, many apparently did not. Was not unknown or uncommon for someone else - team official, etc. to give money to a competitor to buy that rifle, for the non-team member. I know of several rifles used in Palma competitions that came into hands of people who were not team shooters - that way.

So, 1968, 1969, 1970 shoots had shooters using Winchester Model 70 target rifles at Camp Perry in USA in 1968, then Parker Hale 1200 TX at Connaught, near Ottawa in 1969, then teams used Enfield "Envoy" rifles at Bisley in UK in 1970 - and so on - those rifles and the ammunition used supplied by the host nation. For some time, it would not "count" as a PALMA Competition, unless UK, Canada and USA were shooting - other countries participated some years - sometimes just the three - I think that rule fell by the wayside, as I think some Palma competitions listed in the "book" only had Canada and USA teams.

As if it was intended to be a competition of shooting skill and wind reading ability - was not supposed to be about who could show up with most expensive gear, or finest tuned hand loads. I read that a fellow who was very active in Target Rifle - "Farky" Farquason from Winnipeg - was losing the fine edge of his eye-sight and wanted to continue to compete - was one of the primary agitators to allow the use of a scope on those type of rifles - that became known as "F-class" - apparently named for that "Farky" Farquason guy - my impression was that "F-class" started as a way for "old guys" to stay in the Target Rifle game - has changed quite a bit over the years, perhaps.
 
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I read that a fellow who was very active in Target Rifle - "Farky" Farquason from Winnipeg - was losing the fine edge of his eye-sight and wanted to continue to compete - was one of the primary agitators to allow the use of a scope on those type of rifles - that became known as "F-class" - apparently named for that "Farky" Farquason guy - my impression was that "F-class" started as a way for "old guys" to stay in the Target Rifle game - has changed quite a bit over the years, perhaps.
Yes, the gentleman responsible for the inception of Fclass shooting was in fact George Farquarson .
I believe he hailed from Kamloops however .
Cat
 
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A CGN member was Team Captain the year Canada won the Palma Trophy in New Mexico, USA - it was at that shoot that an "official" decision was made to limit the bullet weight to 155 grains. Probably resulted in so much effort by Sierra to produce the Sierra #2156 Palma bullet - which has apparently succeeded in replacing Sierra's previous #2155 Palma bullet - it has a carefully researched boat tail and ogive angle / shape - is alleged to fly very similar to their 175 grain Match King bullet, although more or less 20 grains lighter.
It never occurred to me before, but this is could be where the Term " Mexican Match" came from!

It involves taking the service supplied ammo, pulling the bullets, and seating match bullets in there- traditionally the 155 Seirra Palma Match Bullet.
Now it seems , the rules are all over the map depeding on The country. But I believe in the World's the ammo is still supplied .
Maynard may be able to elaborate on that.
Cat
 
The Model 70 is the US National Match version.
Note the long receiver but shorter ejection opening. The receiver is cut for charger loading using Springfield pattern stripper clips. The US National Match course of fire has a rapid fire portion, so fast reloading is required.
The Redfield sight on the Winchester is a decent sight, but, and this is a big BUT, it does not have a Vernier scale like the PH sight. This means that it is just about mandatory to start at a known zero point and "count clicks" to get where you need to be. Can get very confusing.
 
It never occurred to me before, but this is could be where the Term " Mexican Match" came from!

It involves taking the service supplied ammo, pulling the bullets, and seating match bullets in there- traditionally the 155 Seirra Palma Match Bullet.
Now it seems , the rules are all over the map depeding on The country. But I believe in the World's the ammo is still supplied .
Maynard may be able to elaborate on that.
Cat

The World Long Range Championship and the Palma Match are run under ICFRA Rules. Google "ICFRA shooting". The world Long Range Championships are the Individual Matches, while the Palma Matches are the team events. These matches are shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards except in metric Canada where it is shot at 700m, 800m and 900m. Ammo is now supplied by either the individual or the team. At one time only .308 with 155 gr Sierra bullets were allowed, now any bullet can be used with a max weight of 156 gr. And .223 may also be used. All of course using iron sights, off the elbows, with only the shooter, jacket and sling used to support the rifle.

Hey Ganderite, jump in any time.
 
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Took the M70 out for some sunlight. You guys have been VERY helpful! Thank you.
 

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