Looking to understand H110 a little more with Non-standard loads.

[brandon6976]

Hello all, I'm by no means an expert reloader however I've been reloading for pistol calibers such as 9mm, 38/357 and my 45LC (standard stuff). Always use load book settings and generally stay within the recommended ranges given.

I'd like to do some more reloading when it comes to rifle. I saw in certain "specialty" loads such as 450 bushmaster, 300 blackout and some other loads like that they use h110. I noticed on the burn chart H110 sort of sits between a very slow pistol powder vs a very fast rifle powder. So I was curious if you could use H110 for 223, I saw on johnny's reloading bench youtube channel where he used some pistol powders to make subsonic 223 loads more for fun (he was getting around 1,000fps with things like trail boss and tightgroup, link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw_zViPQ_gs ). I have a friend who has access to quickload. So I asked him to do some loads. If you click on the image it'll load the full picture.

However using a 52gr speer match round the h110 seems to be fine? Gets 2,975 fps, gets 100% burn and for my loads I kept them all around the 40k psi.


So if I switch over to the tried and true Varget, I see if I load it to around the same pressure it gets 3,020fps, 87% burn and roughly the same PSI.


When I looked at hornady's site they have their 53gr 223, it gets 3,465 fps and of course the rest of the stuff isn't published (link below). However My question is really when I googled around and saw there are lots of people asking the question can I use h110 for 223. Most people replying are saying "No it's not published so you shouldn't use it". I get that people don't like using unlisted loads but I'm curious if there is something I'm missing that would make this a bad idea. When playing with the powders I did see that the h110 pretty much maxes out there and to get the 3465 fps of a factory load would create waaaay to much PSI, however as an example if I'm fine with around 3,000fps is this a bad idea?

Anyone here done anything like that or know if there is something I just don't understand? I'm not opposed to using a traditional rifle powder, however at the same time I mostly just reloading pistol powders so I'm wondering if when I reloading my 357 if I can use the same powder in my 223 bolt action for having some fun at the range.


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/223-rem-53-gr-v-max-superformance#!/

 

[pacobillie]

H110 is too fast a powder for that application. A full load would yield too high a pressure. Some powders do not work well and may become unpredictable when using a reduced load. H110 may be one of those powders.

 

[VinnyQC]

Yep, not a problem.

In general if you use a smaller charge of a faster powder to reach the same maximum pressure, you will reach that pressure faster, and the volume of gaz will be smaller, so the pressure will fall faster. Since the energy acquired by your bullet is proportional to the area under the pressure curve, the bullet will have less energy (therefore less velocity) when it comes out of the barrel.

The important thing is to load to the same max pressure, not use the same load weight. But you seem to have already figured that out, so load in peace my young padawan!

There are 2 caveats:
1-Normally I would test an "unconventional" load in a test barrel with a manometer to make sure the pressure calculated by quickload is right. Quickload is just a simulator, and it can't take into account the differences between barrels, chambers, etc... so it can easily be 20-30% off;
2-You might not wanna use your reloads in a semi-auto, but for posterity: in a gas system like an AR, the pressure isn't the only thing that'll make the gun cycle correctly, the volume of gaz must also be large enough. With 17grns, that volume probably won't be enough to cycle most off-the-shelf ARs, so a emi-auto might need an adjustable gaz block.

 

[brandon6976]

H110 is too fast a powder for that application. A full load would yield too high a pressure. Some powders do not work well and may become unpredictable when using a reduced load. H110 may be one of those powders.

That's why I included the quickload sheet. If loaded with a low charge it shows that it "in theory" wouldn't be too high a pressure. Though I am all ears if there is something I'm missing.

Yep, not a problem.

In general if you use a smaller charge of a faster powder to reach the same maximum pressure, you will reach that pressure faster, and the volume of gaz will be smaller, so the pressure will fall faster. Since the energy acquired by your bullet is proportional to the area under the pressure curve, the bullet will have less energy (therefore less velocity) when it comes out of the barrel.

The important thing is to load to the same max pressure, not use the same load weight. But you seem to have already figured that out, so load in peace my young padawan!

There are 2 caveats:
1-Normally I would test an "unconventional" load in a test barrel with a manometer to make sure the pressure calculated by quickload is right. Quickload is just a simulator, and it can't take into account the differences between barrels, chambers, etc... so it can easily be 20-30% off;
2-You might not wanna use your reloads in a semi-auto, but for posterity: in a gas system like an AR, the pressure isn't the only thing that'll make the gun cycle correctly, the volume of gaz must also be large enough. With 17grns, that volume probably won't be enough to cycle most off-the-shelf ARs, so a emi-auto might need an adjustable gaz block.

Thanks very much for the reply. I did see on some other forums people did mention that it *may* or may not cycle semi automatic fire arms that depend on gas pressure to cycle (such as an AR). It sounds like I'm not completely crazy and have the basic concepts correct. I never heard of a manometer before, do they make these for rifles? Is there a link of some sort showing this and how I would use such a device on a rifle?

 

[todbartell]

Your start pressure of 3626 psi would be correct if your bullet jump to lands is 1/4"

I wouldn't use H110 in a 223

 

[VinnyQC]

That's why I included the quickload sheet. If loaded with a low charge it shows that it "in theory" wouldn't be too high a pressure. Though I am all ears if there is something I'm missing.




Thanks very much for the reply. I did see on some other forums people did mention that it *may* or may not cycle semi automatic fire arms that depend on gas pressure to cycle (such as an AR). It sounds like I'm not completely crazy and have the basic concepts correct. I never heard of a manometer before, do they make these for rifles? Is there a link of some sort showing this and how I would use such a device on a rifle?

A "manometer" is the actual word for "pressure meter". The tiny thing you use to measure the pressure in your tires is a manometer, altough you've probably always called it a pressure meter.

To measure the pressure inside the chamber of a firearm, typically you use a test barrel with a hole in it, and insert a piezo. When the cartridge is fired, the piezo is compressed, wich creates a tiny electrical current that can be measured. So technically, the piezzo and the measuring equipment acts as a manometer. This isn't much helpfull to you though, as you probably don't have access to that kind of equipment.

There's another way to measure pressure. A transducer strain gauge. It's nowhere near as good as a piezo, and as far as I'm concerned, it should only be used to measure relative pressures in a given firearm (e.g. you shoot a commercial 223 and your own H110 load in your rifle and the ratio of pressure between the 2 of them should be a somewhat good measurement). The upside is you don't need a test barrel with a hole (or to drill into your own barrel), you just glue something (the strain gauge) to the barrel and you can remove it afterward. I'm not sure how much those system costs, the one we have here at the lab is kind of old and we never use it since we have all the nifty stuff, but I would say you could get one for a "reasonnable" price. By "reasonnable" I mean probably more than you want to spend, but still not out of reach of most individual.

The caveat is that if your load produces a pressure that's out of whack for your firearm (say 200k psi for a barrel meant for 60k psi), then you still get a blown up firearm. It doesn't really help your case here. A test barrel can withstand insane pressure, but not your rifle.

You can browse this forum for ideas. I remember a while ago someone asked for puff load for rifles because he had a bad shoulder. A lot of people suggested using fast pistol powder, but as you said above, that will not push any rifle bullet to rifle velocity. As far as H110 pressure goes though, I wouldn't be too worried about using a 300 blackout load in a 223 cartridge. The reasonning is that the chamber of a 223 has a lot more volume than the one of a 300blk (28 vs 19 grn of H2O), and the bullet is much much lighter (~55grn vs 220grn), so the same amount of the same powder will yield a much lower pressure in a 223 than a 300blk. Just make sure the bullet has left the barrel before shooting another one; subsonic 300blk loads are known for getting stuck in longer barrels, so the same might happen with a 223. Hard to tell though, the people shooting barely-supersonic with tightgroup seem to be fine.

 

[VinnyQC]

On a side note, I would say I mostly agree with the people who generally disagree with the idea of using h110 in a 223. You can get some ball powder that's just as easy to measure with a hopper, doesn't cost much more than h110 and will work much more effectively. You don't need the overly expensive, hard-to-measure varget to make 223. And if you're willing to wait for canam's next shipment of D4064, you'll have a powder made almost specifically for 223 at a dirt-cheap price.

H110 is a 223 could be a fun scientific experiment to satisfy one's curiosity, but it probably won't get you the result you hope for, and if you don't have the means to make those kind of experiments, they can end up a bit costly.

 

[brandon6976]

Your start pressure of 3626 psi would be correct if your bullet jump to lands is 1/4"

I wouldn't use H110 in a 223

I'm not sure what you're implying by that (not being snarky i just don't know what you're trying to suggest)? I understand that you need a certain amount of starting pressure to get the bullet to start moving/leaving the case cartridge, are you saying that the 3626 is too high, low ?

I understanding everyone generally says I wouldn't use that, this to me is a bit of a thought exercise in trying to expand my understanding of reloading to see why people say it, if it's because it's just not in the list then I'd challenge and ask why not. I can clearly see that if I use a heavier bullet like a 62gr the pressure jumps up pretty quick and the muzzle velocity starts dropping. With that I understand that H110 in this exam is not a good powder for say a heavier round but if as I'm showing in this example if using a 52gr match round (so lighter round) and if I target for around 3,000fps it's doing so (on quickload) without passing 40,000 psi. on a round/gun that's designed for 60,000 psi.

A "manometer" is the actual word for "pressure meter". The tiny thing you use to measure the pressure in your tires is a manometer, altough you've probably always called it a pressure meter.

To measure the pressure inside the chamber of a firearm, typically you use a test barrel with a hole in it, and insert a piezo. When the cartridge is fired, the piezo is compressed, wich creates a tiny electrical current that can be measured. So technically, the piezzo and the measuring equipment acts as a manometer. This isn't much helpfull to you though, as you probably don't have access to that kind of equipment.

There's another way to measure pressure. A transducer strain gauge. It's nowhere near as good as a piezo, and as far as I'm concerned, it should only be used to measure relative pressures in a given firearm (e.g. you shoot a commercial 223 and your own H110 load in your rifle and the ratio of pressure between the 2 of them should be a somewhat good measurement). The upside is you don't need a test barrel with a hole (or to drill into your own barrel), you just glue something (the strain gauge) to the barrel and you can remove it afterward. I'm not sure how much those system costs, the one we have here at the lab is kind of old and we never use it since we have all the nifty stuff, but I would say you could get one for a "reasonnable" price. By "reasonnable" I mean probably more than you want to spend, but still not out of reach of most individual.

The caveat is that if your load produces a pressure that's out of whack for your firearm (say 200k psi for a barrel meant for 60k psi), then you still get a blown up firearm. It doesn't really help your case here. A test barrel can withstand insane pressure, but not your rifle.

You can browse this forum for ideas. I remember a while ago someone asked for puff load for rifles because he had a bad shoulder. A lot of people suggested using fast pistol powder, but as you said above, that will not push any rifle bullet to rifle velocity. As far as H110 pressure goes though, I wouldn't be too worried about using a 300 blackout load in a 223 cartridge. The reasonning is that the chamber of a 223 has a lot more volume than the one of a 300blk (28 vs 19 grn of H2O), and the bullet is much much lighter (~55grn vs 220grn), so the same amount of the same powder will yield a much lower pressure in a 223 than a 300blk. Just make sure the bullet has left the barrel before shooting another one; subsonic 300blk loads are known for getting stuck in longer barrels, so the same might happen with a 223. Hard to tell though, the people shooting barely-supersonic with tightgroup seem to be fine.

Fair enough. good info. I think for me (random guy reloading in his basement for fun), I don't think I'd be able to justify all that gear. However I appreciate all the feedback. Using hodgdonreloading.com for my pistol rounds as my benchmark I do notice that quickload actually shows different ratings but typically actually higher than hodgdonreloading.com. I know none of these would be completely accurate and there are many factors, this is also why if I was doing something like this I'm thinking if I were to load a 223 and if I load it to what quickload says is 40,000 psi (pistol powder or rifle powder) it should give me lots of wiggle room as even if it was off by 30% that would put it around 52,000psi (which would be considerably hotter than expected but still acceptable). I generally go slow when reloading as I don't reload for quantity and I do it more as a hobby and I find it relaxing to reload and take my time.

 

[brandon6976]

On a side note, I would say I mostly agree with the people who generally disagree with the idea of using h110 in a 223. You can get some ball powder that's just as easy to measure with a hopper, doesn't cost much more than h110 and will work much more effectively. You don't need the overly expensive, hard-to-measure varget to make 223. And if you're willing to wait for canam's next shipment of D4064, you'll have a powder made almost specifically for 223 at a dirt-cheap price.

H110 is a 223 could be a fun scientific experiment to satisfy one's curiosity, but it probably won't get you the result you hope for, and if you don't have the means to make those kind of experiments, they can end up a bit costly.

Yeah I was looking at other powders (rifle powders) to see what's out there. I shoot 223, 22-250 and 45-70. was thinking reloader 7 may be a good fit. Right now I'm just browsing and came accross various h110 threads which caused me to create this thread and ask.

 

[bigedp51]

H110 and 296 are the same powder, and the problem with these slow burning powders is you do "NOT" want to reduce the loads.

Below Winchester loading data warning.

 

[todbartell]

I'm not sure what you're implying by that (not being snarky i just don't know what you're trying to suggest)? I understand that you need a certain amount of starting pressure to get the bullet to start moving/leaving the case cartridge, are you saying that the 3626 is too high, low ?

Add 7200 psi to the default 3626 psi start pressure for a length that contacts the rifling. (10,826) For every .001" you're off the lands, take 29psi off this number. If you're jumping the bullet .100" to lands from your loaded length, your start pressure would be 7926psi (10826 - 2900)

It's in the QL manual

 

[brandon6976]

H110 and 296 are the same powder, and the problem with these slow burning powders is you do "NOT" want to reduce the loads.

Below Winchester loading data warning.

fair enough, what I take from that is the crimp? also I do note that most h110 is based on magnum pistols such as 44mag or 357 mag using magnum primiers. So I can appreciate that a non-magnum rifle primer I'm guessing has a different type of ignition, as well the crimp (or lack there of) can change the pressure.

Also to be fair when looking at loads such as varget and various loads even on the Hodgdon site often has loads not reaching 90%, that being said it's fair to say different powders will react differently to that and if I try to read between the lines of that warning i'm guessing it's suggesting it could create squib loads?

 

[brandon6976]

Add 7200 psi to the default 3626 psi start pressure for a length that contacts the rifling. (10,826) For every .001" you're off the lands, take 29psi off this number. If you're jumping the bullet .100" to lands from your loaded length, your start pressure would be 7926psi (10826 - 2900)

It's in the QL manual

I'm guessing that's why when I watch say something like Johnny's reloading bench and others they're always playing with the projectile depth, and why people are trying to get the bullet to essentially be on (or as close to as possible) the lands?

 

[bigedp51]

fair enough, what I take from that is the crimp? also I do note that most h110 is based on magnum pistols such as 44mag or 357 mag using magnum primiers. So I can appreciate that a non-magnum rifle primer I'm guessing has a different type of ignition, as well the crimp (or lack there of) can change the pressure.

Also to be fair when looking at loads such as varget and various loads even on the Hodgdon site often has loads not reaching 90%, that being said it's fair to say different powders will react differently to that and if I try to read between the lines of that warning i'm guessing it's suggesting it could create squib loads?

H110 would have a very low loading density in a .223 case and increase the chances of detonation and extreme overpressure. The warning states to "NOT" reduce powder charges with 296 below 90%.

Bottom line H110 and 296 were never designed for the .223 cartridge no matter what Quickload might tell you.

 

[todbartell]

Long jump to lands isn't a bad thing, accuracy can still be great. It's an input that is often overlooked on Quickload though, to properly input the start pressure

 

[pacobillie]

I'm guessing that's why when I watch say something like Johnny's reloading bench and others they're always playing with the projectile depth, and why people are trying to get the bullet to essentially be on (or as close to as possible) the lands?

Everybody says it (using H110 in reduced 223 loads) may not be not safe. Hogdgon /Winchester says it is not safe. That should tell you something. Unless of course you are the proverbial stormchaser.

 

[brandon6976]

H110 would have a very low loading density in a .223 case and increase the chances of detonation and extreme overpressure. The warning states to "NOT" reduce powder charges with 296 below 90%.

Bottom line H110 and 296 were never designed for the .223 cartridge no matter what Quickload might tell you.

Well I get that h110 was never designed for 223. However I'm sure titegroup or trailboss wasn't but people still use it for subsonic as an example. It's completely possible those other two have different characteristics that make it safer. I obviously don't know enough but my asking these questions is just trying to understand more from people (here at CGN) who may have insights.

Long jump to lands isn't a bad thing, accuracy can still be great. It's an input that is often overlooked on Quickload though, to properly input the start pressure

Yeah I've seen in some video's where Johnny and others will play with charge weights or even same charge weights but different seating depths to figure out what works best in a specific rifle.

 

[jamesharrison]

Thank you tedbartel. I forgot this part of the manual. Just another item to remember if you're trying to get your results to coincide with what Herr Broemel's magic programme spits out.

Long jump to lands isn't a bad thing, accuracy can still be great. It's an input that is often overlooked on Quickload though, to properly input the start pressure

 

[Ganderite]

In my log I see i have tried 47 different powders for 223. But not H110.

Your 45-70 and 223 could share a powder.

22-250 would be best with something slower.

 

[porpoise]

I have not used h110 but I’ve read a lot it is not suitable for low density loads. N110 is a different type of powder with close to the same burn rate that works great in 300 bk and light loads in 30 06 I mean 18 gr. With no worries about powder placement and not bad plinking accuracy with plated bullets I wouldn’t hesitate to try it in 223 a good safer powder. Maybe more expensive but very predictable I use it in 357 too