Low Distance Scope Dilemma, Please Help

[Koshy]

Hey guys,

Soooo I have a bit of a problem right now

On Wednesday nights the club I go to has a Rifle Night Event. This includes a .22 and any other Center Fire. The range is only a 50 meter Range. So some of the targets are at 20 and some are 50.

So it is not enough to have a .22 LR

My long range rifle scope for other ranges that are 100+ will be the Premier Reticle 3-15x50. But I need one for 20 - 50 meters and I would like something that is of high quality but not as expensive as the PR. So that leaves me with a Fixed Power scope or a Red Dot or Aim Point or Holosight or ACOG.

My concern with the Fixed Power scope:
- They tend to use 1" tube, thus it will be impossible to have it resting at the same height as my 34mm tube PR scope, which means I will have to be constantly adjusting my cheek piece and Buttplate. Not only is this annoying but can create inconsistancies in my shooting.
- Possible lack of Parallax going down to 20 meters?

My concerns with a Red Dot/Aim Point/Holosight/ACO
- From my understanding especially with a Red Dot or Aim Point is that they are less accurate then a scope, mostly due to dot size?
- Not sure if they will be effective on target paper for 20 - 50 meters, since as I understand it they are designed for more "human" sized/looking targets?
- A lot more expensive then a Fixed Power Scope

But yes, EOTECH type sight or something like the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T Riflescope, was what I was thinking about, but above are my concerns with something like that....

So I am left wondering, what is possible and what to do?

So if anyone has any good ideas about an accurate and good glass fixed power scope (saves money over variable), or extremely accurate ACOG type "scope", that will work in the range between 20 and 50 metres please help me

It will be on a Steyr SSG 08 Bolt Action Rifle.

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[APG]

One thing to check before buying another scope, is the minimum distance it will work at.
Rimfire scopes are optimized for use around 75 yards or so. However, many high power non-rimfire scopes will not focus properly at less than 100 yards.
So, for use at 50 yards or less, you might have to use a rimfire scope instead of a standard one, just to get the parallax( ?? ) adjustment right.
Perhaps an EOTech sight would be better for you instead of a rifle scope?
Also, at those short distances, do you need to use a centerfire rifle? A 22LR rifle should be fine for practice.

APG

 

[Koshy]

One thing to check before buying another scope, is the minimum distance it will work at.
Rimfire scopes are optimized for use around 75 yards or so. However, many high power non-rimfire scopes will not focus properly at less than 100 yards.
So, for use at 50 yards or less, you might have to use a rimfire scope instead of a standard one, just to get the parallax( ?? ) adjustment right.
Perhaps an EOTech sight would be better for you instead of a rifle scope?
Also, at those short distances, do you need to use a centerfire rifle? A 22LR rifle should be fine for practice.

APG

Okay I will try and explain a little better, so that no one gets the wrong idea

On Wednesday nights the club I go to has a Rifle Night Event. This includes a .22 and any other Center Fire. The range is only a 50 meter Range. So some of the targets are at 20 and some are 50.

So it is not enough to have a .22 LR

My long range rifle scope for other ranges that are 100+ will be the Premier Reticle 3-15x50. But I need one for 20 - 50 meters and I would like something that is of high quality but not as expensive as the PR. So that leaves me with a Fixed Power scope or a Red Dot or Aim Point or Holosight or ACOG.

My concern with the Fixed Power scope:
- They tend to use 1" tube, thus it will be impossible to have it resting at the same height as my 34mm tube PR scope, which means I will have to be constantly adjusting my cheek piece and Buttplate. Not only is this annoying but can create inconsistancies in my shooting.

My concerns with a Red Dot/Aim Point/Holosight/ACO
- From my understanding especially with a Red Dot or Aim Point is that they are less accurate then a scope, mostly due to dot size?
-Not sure if they will be effective on target paper for 20 - 50 meters, since as I understand it they are designed for more "human" sized/looking targets?

But yes, EOTECH type sight or something like the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T Riflescope, was what I was thinking about, but above are my concerns with something like that....

So I am left wondering, what is possible and what to do?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Ar180shooter]

If you're only going to be shooting at 50 yards, I'd go with an Aimpoint or EOTech. Remember, the 2MOA Aimpoint dot is only 1" on the target at 50 yards, and it's parallax free.

Also, if it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to only use an ACOG on the rifle, and not worrying about having two sets of optics for the rifle. An ACOG will be more than sufficient for targets out to 300 yards.

 

[Koshy]

If you're only going to be shooting at 50 yards, I'd go with an Aimpoint or EOTech. Remember, the 2MOA Aimpoint dot is only 1" on the target at 50 yards, and it's parallax free.

Also, if it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to only use an ACOG on the rifle, and not worrying about having two sets of optics for the rifle. An ACOG will be more than sufficient for targets out to 300 yards.

I would be shooting out to 800+ yards, so I likely need the top end scope

Would you still use an Aimpoint or EOTech at 20 meters? Also concidering Aimpoints and EOTech's are x1 magnification, I question whether I could even see the direct center at 50 meters?
I mean a 20 yard Sporting Rifle Target is .5" across for the 10 Ring and 1" across for 9 ring... and targets for the Wednesday night shoots are probably only a little larger on some of the targets.

Probably dumb question, does a ACOG have Parallax? Does it need it?

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[tiriaq]

There are scopes with adjustable parallax that would work at the ranges you plan on shooting.
I see the Premier Reticle scope's parallax adjustment has a lower limit of 50m. Too bad.
You might consider looking for a variable scope which has the desired range of parallax adjustment. Variable scopes with parallax adjustment are more common that fixed power ones. You should be able to find a perfectly usable scope for a lot less than the cost of some of the sights you mention.

 

[Koshy]

There are scopes with adjustable parallax that would work at the ranges you plan on shooting.
I see the Premier Reticle scope's parallax adjustment has a lower limit of 50m. Too bad.
You might consider looking for a variable scope which has the desired range of parallax adjustment. Variable scopes with parallax adjustment are more common that fixed power ones. You should be able to find a perfectly usable scope for a lot less than the cost of some of the sights you mention.

The only one I know of is Bushnell (Gets down to 10-15 meters), and like the Rifle I have chosen, I would like to go with optics that will last me a life time and will be of the same quality as my rifle. S&B/PR/NF/LEOPOLD/ETC none of these brands get down below 50, the only one I have seen that does is Kahles, but they are more focused on hunting rifles (covered turrets), unless I want to go MOA turrets with MILDOT reticule, but then comes more conversions... etc.. etc... but the Kahles only gets down to 25 meters anyway... which isn't low enough (need 20).

So as you see, getting a fixed power scope for $200-400, would be a lot easier, so long as I can find one in 30-34mm rings so that I can use a high mount or such to match my Premier Reticle.

Or if I must I will spend a little more then that and go with a ACOG/EOTech... so long as I can have some sort of confirmation I won't lose accuracy, or run into problems seeing the center of my target, thus having problems with accuracy

Sooo yea... kinda left

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Satain]

Was at Italain Sporting Goods for there 1 day sale. They had vendors there selling there goods at discounted prices. When I stumbled across the Vortex vendor and after all the hype lately about these scopes, plus watching that youtube video of the "Tundra Test" I wanted to see the quality of glass. I paraded the 3.5-10x50mm Viper scope around to all the scope vendors table's. Bushnell didn't even compare until there 6500 series and even then I still picked the Viper cuz the glass was better & weighed way less. Next stop was Leopuld and I have no idea what is up with this company. I thought they were the benchmark in what to compare all other rifle scopes too? Until I go into there top model's like the mark 4 they sucked or weighed a ton but not as much as the Bushnells. Off to the Zeiss counter cuz I know that they rock! I didn't fell like dropping 2+K on a Diavari scope from a guy that wouldn't do more than take off the taxes. So to make a long story short. I looked threw the Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x50mm with the Z 600 reticule. OMG!!! I could swear I was holding the exact same scope in my hands. The weight was almost the same, the turret were almost the exact same and both reticules came with there own BDC. Witch in this case the Zeiss win's hands down because the Rapid Z make for easy ranging in my mind. The only other thing I would have to say is that the conquest had a little brighter at full magnification. But only by a very little while staring threw them for an 1/2 an hour. In the end I opted for the Viper because @ $475 all in was a lot better deal than $875 plus the government contributions. I hope that my 2 cents help's you out in picking your next low range scope.

 

[Koshy]

Was at Italain Sporting Goods for there 1 day sale. They had vendors there selling there goods at discounted prices. When I stumbled across the Vortex vendor and after all the hype lately about these scopes, plus watching that youtube video of the "Tundra Test" I wanted to see the quality of glass. I paraded the 3.5-10x50mm Viper scope around to all the scope vendors table's. Bushnell didn't even compare until there 6500 series and even then I still picked the Viper cuz the glass was better & weighed way less. Next stop was Leopuld and I have no idea what is up with this company. I thought they were the benchmark in what to compare all other rifle scopes too? Until I go into there top model's like the mark 4 they sucked or weighed a ton but not as much as the Bushnells. Off to the Zeiss counter cuz I know that they rock! I didn't fell like dropping 2+K on a Diavari scope from a guy that wouldn't do more than take off the taxes. So to make a long story short. I looked threw the Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x50mm with the Z 600 reticule. OMG!!! I could swear I was holding the exact same scope in my hands. The weight was almost the same, the turret were almost the exact same and both reticules came with there own BDC. Witch in this case the Zeiss win's hands down because the Rapid Z make for easy ranging in my mind. The only other thing I would have to say is that the conquest had a little brighter at full magnification. But only by a very little while staring threw them for an 1/2 an hour. In the end I opted for the Viper because @ $475 all in was a lot better deal than $875 plus the government contributions. I hope that my 2 cents help's you out in picking your next low range scope.

Thanks for your input, unfortunatly the Viper's Parallax only gets down to 100 yards. I need a parallax that gets down to 20 yards or something that doesn't need a parallax like Aimpoint =( I'm glad to hear you are enjoying it though!

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[Blygy]

Check out the March line of scopes with the 10X power range.

Either a 1-10 or 2.5-25 would work well for you I think.

 

[maynard]

I can't see what shooting your .308 at 20 yards would prove.

 

[Koshy]

Check out the March line of scopes with the 10X power range.

Either a 1-10 or 2.5-25 would work well for you I think.

Hey, interesting never heard of March before. I like how they have MOA turrets and MOA reticules but here are my problems with it:
- A 5 year warrenty? Come on... for something costing me $1500-2000 I would not want to risk that =/
- Being such a new company, the 5 year warrenty compacts concern.
- If it were to be my only rifle scope (because it has a parallax all the way down to 10 yards), I would want an FFP not a SFP so that I could do hold over effectively at any power.

Thanks for introducing me to them though, I will definetly keep my eyes on that company.

I can't see what shooting your .308 at 20 yards would prove.

I think I will update my main topic with what I said in a later post on this thread...
Here is what I said:
On Wednesday nights the club I go to has a Rifle Night Event. This includes a .22 and any other Center Fire. The range is only a 50 meter Range. So some of the targets are at 20 and some are 50.

So it is not enough to have a .22 LR

It has nothing to do with proving anything -.-

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[maynard]

Koshy,
Maybe I should have worded it better I just can't see burning powder and wasting bullets and barrel life shooting at 20 yards. Even at 50 yards the only thing you will accomplish is getting a feel for your rifle. Don't under-estimate dry firing when it comes to good practice.

 

[Koshy]

Koshy,
Maybe I should have worded it better I just can't see burning powder and wasting bullets and barrel life shooting at 20 yards. Even at 50 yards the only thing you will accomplish is getting a feel for your rifle. Don't under-estimate dry firing when it comes to good practice.

It for sure would be good practice, as I have only ever consistantly shot .22's before. To me shooting at any distance is not wasting bullets, especially when it affords you the opportunity to socialize with a bunch of great guys! Although I do understand what you are saying, so don't get me wrong

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[delta1]

Koshy
The rifle you have is a thing of beauty. Have you looked at the USOptics line of scopes. I think you may find the 2 scopes you need there. Yes they are expensive but both can be made to fit your exact needs.
regards delta1

 

[Koshy]

Koshy
The rifle you have is a thing of beauty. Have you looked at the USOptics line of scopes. I think you may find the 2 scopes you need there. Yes they are expensive but both can be made to fit your exact needs.
regards delta1

Thanks, unfortunatly I could not find any scopes there that would work... they all have FIXED parallax with no option to make them Variable Parallax let alone the Parallax range that I may need...

I was able to find Accuracy International mount that is 34 mm but can add spacers to lower it to 30 mm or even 26mm (1 inch?). Soooo that might be an option for keeping the eye level the exact same or very close, but still have the option of using a 1" or a 30mm. The next question would be... what would be a quality low power optic with a parallax down to 15-20 meters... Kahles is super close.. but super close isn't close enough

Or if I went the route of an Aimpoint, somehow I think a 2 MOA dot (1" at 50 meters) trying to hit a 10 point ring that is 0.5" across at 20 meters or 1" across at 50 meters would be a huge problem? O,o

I wish I could test drive (meaning look through) this stuff before having to buy it -.-

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[TR11]

if your going to be doing F-class shooting up to 1K, id want a little more mag than 15x. Like, say, my 22x nightforce

Nice rig man. Shame I had to sell off mine, yours just made me want one again.

As far as optics for BRRC, just get the quick release for your Premier, and use iron sights at the indoor range

PS: Whoever is in the port beside you getting blasted with that brake gas is going to hate you.

 

[Koshy]

if your going to be doing F-class shooting up to 1K, id want a little more mag than 15x. Like, say, my 22x nightforce

Nice rig man. Shame I had to sell off mine, yours just made me want one again.

As far as optics for BRRC, just get the quick release for your Premier, and use iron sights at the indoor range

PS: Whoever is in the port beside you getting blasted with that brake gas is going to hate you.

Hahaha I know who you are and thanks!! I know a few guys shoot 10x FIXED magnification at 1K (better sight picture), but pretty sure they bench it Also I doubt I will be shooting 1K competition style in the near future. As it is complex and expensive to be accurate Also getting into 18+ magnification brings up mirage issues a lot Remember at 1K you are usually talking about 6 feet targets? Likely I will shoot the Tactical F-Class matches at the 300-800 range in the near term or factory if there is a factory class

If you are going to buy another rifle may I suggest an AI AW (Accuracy International). Then we can fondle each others rifles from time to time (yes I am trying to get you wanting to shoot rifles again!).

When I shot a couple times a few weeks ago (cleaning it), you shoulda seen the door get pushed, was hilarious... and yes I'm sure I will be hated, thats why us Muzzle Break guys get put on the end on Wednesday nights Fortunatly the barrel is long enough that chances are no1 will be feeling the muzzle break directly Although from what I was told... is louder then other .308's likely because of the muzzle break.

As for iron sights... like anything else I am concerned about getting the "optic"//"open sights" to the same eye level, as to not having to constantly switch cheek welds... which would effect aim... cost more money... etc. I am probably going to go with the AI Unimount x2... which uses an Allen Key on 3 "screws", but has the ability to be 34mm, 30mm or 1" ring size via spacers... but what I would prefer to do is get LaRue in 34mm and 30mm or 1", because those have quick release. But they will not ship outside of USA... which means I would have to ask friend in states (e-friend not real life -.-) to ship them to me... or find a dealer willing to bring me in some outta kindness in their hearts I will not purchase ARMS quick release mounts as I have heard very bad stories about them (sadly)

And with ironsights... well I would have to find one I can mount to the end of my barrel before the muzzle break, as well as find a rear sight that matches the height as my PR rings...

Which is why I am more leaning to some sort of Reflex optic...

Thanks,
- Koshy

 

[skeetgunner]

On Wednesday nights the club I go to has a Rifle Night Event.

*ahem*

- They tend to use 1" tube, thus it will be impossible to have it resting at the same height as my 34mm tube PR scope, which means I will have to be constantly adjusting my cheek piece and Buttplate.

Remember, all of the league shooting is done off-hand, standing, and most precision F-class is done prone. So its likely you'll be making minor adjustments to your stock set up anyway. So scope with 1" tube isn't that big a deal. Hell for the sake of practice, slap a Bushnell 3-9x32AO with target turrets on it and call it a day. Lots of league shooters use that scope, its parallax adjustable from 7yards to infinity.

Something else to consider....parralax error diminishes at lower magnification. Its still there at 3x, but the size of the apparent error may be within the width of the bullseye. Or put another way, a hit in the 10 ring is a hit in the 10 ring. And we tend to use large targets, even at 20 yards. Many shooters use the Bushnell 3200 10x40 scope, and just compensate for the parallax.

I can't see what shooting your .308 at 20 yards would prove.

Its more of a night out, social league then hard core competition. Think, "bowling-league-with-guns."

 

[Koshy]

*ahem*



Remember, all of the league shooting is done off-hand, standing, and most precision F-class is done prone. So its likely you'll be making minor adjustments to your stock set up anyway. So scope with 1" tube isn't that big a deal. Hell for the sake of practice, slap a Bushnell 3-9x32AO with target turrets on it and call it a day. Lots of league shooters use that scope, its parallax adjustable from 7yards to infinity.

Something else to consider....parralax error diminishes at lower magnification. Its still there at 3x, but the size of the apparent error may be within the width of the bullseye. Or put another way, a hit in the 10 ring is a hit in the 10 ring. And we tend to use large targets, even at 20 yards. Many shooters use the Bushnell 3200 10x40 scope, and just compensate for the parallax.

Its more of a night out, social league then hard core competition. Think, "bowling-league-with-guns."

Yes I am kinda edging closer and closer to going with a 3-9 bushnell since they are only $100. But if I can help it I rather go with something quality What I will probably end up doing is waiting and decide at a later time, maybe find someone with an Aimpoint at the club or in my area and then see for myself what it looks like at 20 - 50. Steve was kind enough to lend me his 3-9 bushnell

Yes exactly, good way to have fun and get to know some good guys

Thanks,
- Koshy