Low-Recoil Caliber and Rifle Questions

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KenGee

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Hey all,

I own a few bigger caliber hunting rifles (300 win mag, 30 nosler) and enjoy going to the range with them and working on all aspects of shooting. The problem is I'm starting to notice bad habits and flinching when shooting, even with the brakes. I want to shoot more and build better shooting habits at the range so I was thinking that 6.5cm looked to be a good option. I've tried staying away from it, however it's a caliber that seems to check all the boxes. It's a low recoil caliber, with lots of available ammo and reloading supplies, with rifles being built to support long range shooting (appropriate twists, triggers, etc)

I'd like to combine this "shooting more" rifle with hunting as well (even though my hunting will never be done outside of 400yds), so I was hoping some of you could give me your opinions and experiences for the questions below!

1 - Is a 6.5cm an appropriate cartridge for getting out past 600yds at the range when paired with a 22" barrel? Numbers seem fine, but I lack that real-world experience behind a 6.5.
2 - Here are the rifle options available to be at the moment:

Howa 1500 Randy Newberg Edition ($1575)
Comes with Leupold VX-3i 3.5-10 scope
Blued 22" barrel with brake

or

Tikka T3X SuperLite ($1299)
No scope
No brake
threaded 24" stainless barrel


Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

KG
 
Yup, a 6.5CM 22" barrel will be just fine. The biggest thing you'll meed is a scope that will do what you want, possibly a 20MOA base depending how far you want to go. With the variety of match ammo, you dont need to reload for it - I have gone to 1180 yards with a 308win shooting Factory 180gr Rem Corelokt PSP (with a BC around .370 I believe). You really dont need much to shoot a long ways away.
 
1. 6.5 Creed will easily get you out to 600 yards and much further. It's a very well suitable cartridge for 1200 and in and can be stretched out a god ways further (I've shot mine to 1600 yards)

2.Both the Howa and Tikka are nice rifles and should be plenty accurate. No experience with the Leupy VX-3i but any scope that tracks properly and has decent glass and a suitable reticle will work for your purposes.
 
Don't overlook the 223 Rem... rifles like the Tikka and Savage have faster twist barrels allowing heavier bullets to get out to 600yds and well beyond too. Definitely no recoil there and no shortage of supplies, bullets, reloading everything.

Love the 6.5 Creedmoor and it will serve you very well. If you are going to reload, the 6mm Creedmoor is definitely worth a look and less recoil.

Given your budget, you may want to consider piecing something to match your needs.

IMG_3244.jpg

This costs about the same as those factory rifles and I can assure you, will outshoot either... pop can accurate at 600yds.

PM or email to chat if interested...

Jerry
 

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Hey jerry. That is your 223 rem build in the photo? I got one built by insite arms in 223 rem with 1-7.5” twist. I’d like to be pop can accurate at 600 yards with my 223!
 
Your "bad gun habits and flinching" can be cured...take a course with a good shooting coach. Your "bad gun habits and flinching" may/probably migrate to the softer recoiling firearm.
 
You might want to consider the effect of BC on downrange velocity and therefore downrange energy.

If I were to ask 10 hunters what has more energy to kill a moose, a 308 or 30-06, all 10 would say its the 30-06. The problem is that its a loaded question... since I did not specify which bullet was in each cartridge and did not say how far out.

If I was more specific and asked the same question, except this time I specify the distance of 500 yards and using a 150 grain SMK in the 30-06 and a 185 Berger Jugernaught in the 308.. Well now you got to scratch your head and consider which bullet is going faster at distance.

At the same time, you need to consider how much energy is enough. Since you are using this for hunting, Will the bullet have enough energy to kill at the distance in question?

Further to that is illustrated by the Op in the need to be able to consistently shoot the rifle accurately.

I've seen lots of guys shoot badly and miss or wound animals because they could not fire the rifle accurately out of fear of recoil. To this point, I would much prefer to hunt with a rifle that is low on the acceptable range of energy for the animal being hunted, and high on accuracy and therefore insurance on ideal shot placement.

If an arrow in the right place can kill a moose, a bullet in the same place certainly can as well.
 
Most shooters vastly underestimate the effects of recoil and blast.

Many chase their rifle and ammo for accuracy when THEY are the problem.
Good for you recognizing and copping to it.

Trust me...hard tough professionals who kill things for a living struggle with this element of shooting.

Most jump to a hard kicking rifle far too soon as well and immediately develop bad habits that stick.
It is imperative to evelop good shooting technique first.....then carry it to the rifle platform that you can capably shoot well ......most have their limit...and its rarely way up there.

Go back to a rifle platform you are comfortable shooting and practice and develop your skills there....staying on the big rifle before this is counterproductive.
 
1. 6.5CM is a good choice for what you're after. Recoil is very mild compared to your other cartridges and those distances are no issue at all. Barrels last a while for lots of practice time too. I don't have a lot of rounds on my 6.5CM but I quite like the cartridge. My "main" cartridge is a 308 Win and the 6.5 manages to produce less recoil but deliver more energy at medium or long range.

I've heard good things about a good 223 with heavy bullets at those distances for target shooting, but energy seems questionable for hunting.

The 6CM and similar cartridges seem to be a popular choice among competitors in PRS, etc, lately. I do not have experience with them, but the numbers look promising at the ranges you mention and it should hold onto enough energy for your hunting applications. Even less recoil, but also less barrel life. Not sure what the barrel life difference would work out to or if you care.

2. I'm a fan of the tikka's. One tough thing for your use is finding the balance in barrel contour. Too light and it will heat up very quickly at the range, too heavy and it will not be fun to pack around hunting. A friend has a tikka superlite in 308 Win and it's a fantastic rifle, but the barrel gets hot pretty quickly at the range so he has to be mindful of that.
 
You sir are looking for a T3X CTR.

Full disclosure, I’m a Tikka fanboy but only because they have never disappointed me. One thing no one has mentioned is aftermarket support. If you get the LR bug it won’t be long before you are upgrading this that and the other thing. Tikkas have good aftermarket support, I’m not so sure about the Howa but I’ve never looked.
 
Maple57 said:
You might want to consider the effect of BC on downrange velocity and therefore downrange energy.

If I were to ask 10 hunters what has more energy to kill a moose, a 308 or 30-06, all 10 would say its the 30-06. The problem is that its a loaded question... since I did not specify which bullet was in each cartridge and did not say how far out.

If I was more specific and asked the same question, except this time I specify the distance of 500 yards and using a 150 grain SMK in the 30-06 and a 185 Berger Jugernaught in the 308.. Well now you got to scratch your head and consider which bullet is going faster at distance.

At the same time, you need to consider how much energy is enough. Since you are using this for hunting, Will the bullet have enough energy to kill at the distance in question?

Further to that is illustrated by the Op in the need to be able to consistently shoot the rifle accurately.

I've seen lots of guys shoot badly and miss or wound animals because they could not fire the rifle accurately out of fear of recoil. To this point, I would much prefer to hunt with a rifle that is low on the acceptable range of energy for the animal being hunted, and high on accuracy and therefore insurance on ideal shot placement.

If an arrow in the right place can kill a moose, a bullet in the same place certainly can as well.
Click to expand...

You're entirely right. I would never consider the 6.5mm diameter an acceptable moose or elk round, though many may disagree with me. I want a gun to use at the range, to get comfortable with and build good habits, while having the ability to also take a deer or wolf with it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks for the input!

TheNatural21 said:
1. 6.5CM is a good choice for what you're after. Recoil is very mild compared to your other cartridges and those distances are no issue at all. Barrels last a while for lots of practice time too. I don't have a lot of rounds on my 6.5CM but I quite like the cartridge. My "main" cartridge is a 308 Win and the 6.5 manages to produce less recoil but deliver more energy at medium or long range.

I've heard good things about a good 223 with heavy bullets at those distances for target shooting, but energy seems questionable for hunting.

The 6CM and similar cartridges seem to be a popular choice among competitors in PRS, etc, lately. I do not have experience with them, but the numbers look promising at the ranges you mention and it should hold onto enough energy for your hunting applications. Even less recoil, but also less barrel life. Not sure what the barrel life difference would work out to or if you care.

2. I'm a fan of the tikka's. One tough thing for your use is finding the balance in barrel contour. Too light and it will heat up very quickly at the range, too heavy and it will not be fun to pack around hunting. A friend has a tikka superlite in 308 Win and it's a fantastic rifle, but the barrel gets hot pretty quickly at the range so he has to be mindful of that.
Click to expand...

Great feedback, definitely something I'm going to have to think about! The barrel contour is another factor for sure, I don't mind being patient at the range to let things cool down, maybe I'll have to look at picking up a barrel cooler. Having said that the Savage Ultralite seem pretty impressive with the carbon fiber wrapped barrel, though I don't know a great deal about the benefits or practicality of that type versus a heavy or even a bull barrel.
 
Flinches occur because of expected and known recoil. With my 30-06 I limit range time to five rounds these days. Twenty years ago I was thirty pounds heavier and a lot more fit but the recoil didn't bother me. I bought a 7mm-08 a few years back for coyotes and deer and I seem to be able to shoot it all day with no flinch. If I was shooting at a moose with the '06 I would not flinch as I would not expect more than two rounds. And I have never consciously felt recoil or heard any loud noise when shooting at a moose or deer.
 
KenGee said:
You're entirely right. I would never consider the 6.5mm diameter an acceptable moose or elk round, though many may disagree with me. I want a gun to use at the range, to get comfortable with and build good habits, while having the ability to also take a deer or wolf with it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

Why not?

More moose and elk have been killed by 6.5 cartridges then probably all other cartridges out there. The 6.5x55 is a very popular hunting round in Scandinavia, and has taken an immeasurable amount of moose, elk and other big game successfully.

North Americans have a fascination with being "overgunned". I wish more focus was placed on the fundamentals and training, which will equate to more ethical shots and less of a need for that "overgunned" feeling. A good portion of North American hunters have developed and fostered bad habits, such as flinching, by using too much gun and not enough training.
 
kthomas said:
Why not?

More moose and elk have been killed by 6.5 cartridges then probably all other cartridges out there. The 6.5x55 is a very popular hunting round in Scandinavia, and has taken an immeasurable amount of moose, elk and other big game successfully.

North Americans have a fascination with being "overgunned". I wish more focus was placed on the fundamentals and training, which will equate to more ethical shots and less of a need for that "overgunned" feeling. A good portion of North American hunters have developed and fostered bad habits, such as flinching, by using too much gun and not enough training.
Click to expand...

The 6.5 is used extensively in Europe and other parts of the world on moose and similarly-sized game, there is no doubt that the 6.5 creedmoor CAN take elk and moose.

I am a meat hunter, I want a cartridge that will take down the animal quickly and ethically, even when a perfectly broadside shot does not present itself. This is my opinion - .223 can take down a moose, why not use it (legalities aside)? Because it's way undersized...so for me it only makes sense to use a cartridge or caliber that is sufficient in all situations one may face (brush, quartering shots etc..).

The whitetail buck that I took this year was harvested with a .30-06, quartering toward from me. In order to hit the heart and lung as I did, I had to shoot through the closest front shoulder. The bullet made it through the bones, hit the organs, then failed to penetrate the ribs on the other side of the chest and came to rest somewhere in the chest cavity. 150gr 30 cal @ 54yds. I would not want much less than that for any similar shots, especially not on larger animals.

There are many experts on either side of the fence to lean on when looking for support in this argument. Use what works best for you, I will use a 30cal bullet. Cheers!
 
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kthomas said:
Why not?

More moose and elk have been killed by 6.5 cartridges then probably all other cartridges out there. The 6.5x55 is a very popular hunting round in Scandinavia, and has taken an immeasurable amount of moose, elk and other big game successfully.

North Americans have a fascination with being "overgunned". I wish more focus was placed on the fundamentals and training, which will equate to more ethical shots and less of a need for that "overgunned" feeling. A good portion of North American hunters have developed and fostered bad habits, such as flinching, by using too much gun and not enough training.
Click to expand...

Agreed! A good 6.5 bullet through the heart/lungs of any elk,moose, deer, bear is as good as dead. The heavier 6.5 bullets have a high sectional density and very good penetration.
 
Tikka T3XCTR in 260 or 6.5cm is a good combo for a long range and hunter, well designed, good trigger and barrels, heavy enough for decent range work, but not too heavy for hunting, and a decent price for what you get. Mags are pricy, but, they are a good mag. I really hummed and hawed on buying one, but, decided I wanted a dedicated range gun and jumped up to the TAC A1. For myself, if I bought the CTR I'd put a Z3 2.5-10x42 or a 4-12 BRH on it for hunting, and probably switch out to a Delta Javelin 4.5-30x56 for range work.
 
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