Lower Cost Training Cartridge

bolbmw

bolbmw

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Victoria, BC
I've currently been shooting a 308 for the last year and a 22LR as a trainer but I'm finding the 22LR as a trainer frankly just... boring. Sure it's cheap to shoot but accuracy is poor unless you're shooting under 100 yards even with match quality ammunition when compared to center fire cartridges. It's frustrating when the inconsistency in ammo leaves you questioning "Did I ruin that shot, or was it the ammo?" The lack of recoil makes the overall experience fairly lackluster.

I want to get a different rifle for training purposes, one with low recoil, lower cost to shoot that might be a more suitable training cartridge for long range shooting. It's not that the 308 has too much recoil it's rather that shooting over 100 rounds in a range day does add up cost wise. I also find that the recoil does effect my ability to shoot accurately after a large number of rounds and I'd like to shoot more and shoot those rounds accurately. Unless I'm practicing wind calls I don't feel like I am learning anything from the 22LR. I'd really like to improve my marksmanship, especially in other positions and I just don't feel like the 22LR is going to get me there. I'd also really like my platforms to be identical - same stocks, same scope height, etc etc. Unless I find a 40X 22LR and can drop it into a stock I'm limited to factory offerings and aftermarket. My 22LR is a Savage Mark II TR with the tacticool stock which does match the A5 on my 308 somewhat but it is still very different.

Thoughts are around something like a 6BR or even a 223 or 223 AI. That way I would get a cartridge useful for multiple disciplines should I pursue them. I will reload so availability of factory ammunition is not a concern although I would like to avoid fire forming if possible. I'd rather spend my time shooting real rounds than spending my time at the reloading bench and range with cream of wheat.

Thoughts?
 
what kind of range are you looking to shoot?


look into a good 243 or a 260 both will have less recoil and have very good ballistic trajectories. the 260 will buck the wind better and there are some excellent bullets available with a high b.c and s.d
 
For what it would cost you to get into another rifle, caliber, relaoding equipment etc. you could buy enough match ammo to wear out your 308. Depends what you are training to do, but spending time and effort matereing ONE cartridge will put you much further ahead that tying to train with one thing and "apply" with another.
 
I'd say, 223, 204 ruger (if you're rolling your own ammo, even then, cost may be an issue) or 17hmr... (not the longest range, but way better than a 22lr
 
.223, as there's not enough difference in cost with the other calibers in between to see cost savings on either reloading or factory ammo, many actually cost more than the .308. Very hard to beat those 2 calibers for cost effectiveness.
 
bolbmw,
I don't know where you shoot but to shoot 100 rounds a day, I am not sure you are getting all you can out of every shot.
Quantity will not supplant quality of shot. If you are just sending lead down range it will not matter which caliber you use. Your practice time will not yield the maximum it could.
Please do not discard the "lowly" .22LR for it is a super training tool. It will show you no mercy for your technique shortcomings be it holding, sight picture, release, and follow through.
Master the .22LR shooting it at 100 yards or meters depending on the range available and your .308 skills will improve greatly.
If you can find an experienced shooter to act as a mentor, pick his or her brain for all it's worth, and listen, listen, listen.
Good practice and good luck.
 
I have a .223 and REALLY like it. Ive fired some 308's and felt like they would get tiring to shoot after a while. If i do ever find a spot to shoot more than 500-600 yards maybe ill get a 308. But for now my .223 has been great. I shot a 1.5 inch group with Hornady 55grain Vmax at 200 yards and today I shot a 3/4 group with the same ammo at 100 yards.

I also have a .17hmr... which I use when I either dont want to make too much noise or dont want to spend as much $$ on ammo. I really like it compared to my other .22... its got just enough kick to make it interesting and its super accurate to 100 yards. Im working on 200 yards but am currently limited by my optics. Either a .223 or a .17 would be my suggestions.
 
RIFLEF said:
bolbmw,
I don't know where you shoot but to shoot 100 rounds a day, I am not sure you are getting all you can out of every shot.
Quantity will not supplant quality of shot. If you are just sending lead down range it will not matter which caliber you use. Your practice time will not yield the maximum it could.
Please do not discard the "lowly" .22LR for it is a super training tool. It will show you no mercy for your technique shortcomings be it holding, sight picture, release, and follow through.
Master the .22LR shooting it at 100 yards or meters depending on the range available and your .308 skills will improve greatly.
If you can find an experienced shooter to act as a mentor, pick his or her brain for all it's worth, and listen, listen, listen.
Good practice and good luck.
Click to expand...

You raise some pretty good points and you sound like an experienced shooter. I guess I feel somewhat plateaued in my shooting development and need to determine my next training regime. I don't get out to the range as often as I'd like (and it maxes out at 250 yards) so I tend to make a long session out of it focusing on fundamentals, shooting some groups, dot drills, and bench vs prone. I'm making the best of the short range available as I do not know where to go for anything longer distance that isn't several hours away. Maybe the next step is really going out further. There seems to be so much focus on shooting groups online and in different disciplines, so I've been doing that and regularly hold under 0.5moa at 200 yards off bipod so I'm left thinking 'whats next?' Maybe I just need to find my discipline and make long range shooting just that - to try to stretch the legs out to the limits.

Finding mentors and other shooting partners out here has been pretty much impossible. There's either only a couple or its a very cliquey group who don't talk about where the longer ranges are. It has made trying to get into this further difficult and maybe my best bet is to bite the metaphorical bullet and drive several hours to attend some F/TR matches and talk to the experienced shooters there.
 
Shooting a .22 at 100 yards and making good wind calls with it, is great training for shooting long range. There is a gentleman from the US that has come up to Canada and won the Canadian Fullbore Championship a couple times. He told me that he shoots 200 rounds a day with a .22 at 100 yards.

As a TR shooter, iron sight with a jacket and sling, I find shooting smallbore indoors during the winter helps with position, sight picture and follow through. Before the fullbore season starts I shoot a lot of .22 at 50 and 100 yards and only shoot groups.

They say that "practice makes perfect" but I believe "only perfect practice makes perfect".
 
Until every shot under any condition hits the dead center of your target at your furthest distance, you got a long ways to learn.

this applies to ANY chambering

I use a 22LR for training. My set up is not expensive BUT it can shoot under MOA at 200yds SO I put up a 500m ICFRA target (photocopy) at 200yds and launch lead.

It is much harder to get a good relay vs my centerfire rifles (223 by the way). I use SK rifle match ammo so the chances of a flyer due to ammo is very low.

The object learn how to read the wind and be absolutely precise in my follow through. The combo is unforgiving and it will show faults due to form, follow through and wind reading.

To really make the practise interesting and put focus to it all, shoot 2 relays of 17rds and 1 of 16. This uses up 1 box of ammo.

2 sighters, 15 for score. keep track of your score. Spot each shot (spotting scope can work here).

If you are training for precision shooting, volume of shooting really doesn't matter. Missing a zillion times just teaches you how to miss.

Depending on the day, a full practise day may just be 22rds. 2 sighters and 20 for score in 30 mins.

Quality not quantity

Jerry
 
All I can afford to train with is a CZ452 Varmint .22LR. It's mounted with a Leupold Mark4 M1 LR/T 3.5 x 10 x 40mm so that I can continue to work with that set of knobs, adjustments, internals, and adjusting tools. Like Maynard said above, "Perfect practice = perfect performance likelihood".

And MysticPlayer nailed it about the wind calls at 200 and all that fun stuff. I like punching tight and tighter groups on my small bullseye targets at 50m and 100m. All good fun for training the "perfect shot" and then following up!

Hey, trigger time is all good.

cheers,
Barney
 
For your initial cost.comparison query, 223 is somewhere around $0.63 per bang for handloads using heavy bullets. 308, 260, 6.5 swede etc are all right at a dollar plus minus a few pennies per bang for handloaded match ammo. I'd expect 243 to be a little less than a buck per. Those numbers are based on Lapua brass and getting eight firings per case. Anyone who claims differently hasn't actually run the numbers or has a peculiarly good relationship with their bullet and powder dealer. Like Jerry sometimes refers to, start with your goal of what metrics you think you want the bullet to have when it arrives on target and work backwards from there. If all you're after it's for a round to shoot paper accurately inside 600 yards, the 223 if all you need. Don't get confused with the AI and similar noise on the performance spectrum. Everything after the 223 is simply adding energy upon arrival downrange, absolutely nothing else. Cartridge variety is sheer novelty until you get into talking competition winning nuances.
 
My cost is about .86 everytime I pull the trigger on my 308 win.
My cost is about .07 everytime I pull the trigger on my 22lr.

I have improved by practising my 22. In order to shoot 22lr well at 150+ yards your form needs to be in control. Master hitting your targets at those distances and you will get better with your CF shooting.
 
I was in about the same situation. I didn't want to spend a ton of money and suffer the pain of repeatedly practising on my 308 and shooting a 22 just doesn't quite give you the same experience as a bigger caliber. I was able to find on the EE a 7.62x39 bolt rifle and since i have a ton of ammo already for my sks it was exactly what i was looking for. Easy, cheap practise ammo (30-40 cents per round, depending where you get it), kicks enough so you know it went off, but not bad enough to really make you feel a 100 rounds or so.
 
I've found out over the time the most accurate and effective are the first 10-25 rounds. Then the accuracy starts fading off. I shoot CZ 550 Varminter in 308 with heavy barell and it is fun. So far the farthest shoot I took was 840m. There are good days, there are not so good days but with the resources I have here on west coast it costs me just under 60c a to make 308/168 HPBT @2825 fps round. After some 25+ shots I become a little beat up and the accuracy is going to s...ts.
Good luck
 
I can only echo the recommendations of the previous posters regarding the value of .22lr for training. The value of shooting .22lr is that it is unforgiving. If any of your shooting technique such as your trigger technique, cheek weld etc is not correct then you will be punished by a wide shoot.

Make sure you use quality ammo (low end target ammo) such as SK Standard Plus or RWS Target. You won't see the difference using high end target quality ammo in your rifle.

A piece of advice I can add it to use a high power scope. I use a cheap Bushnell 24x for 50m. With a scope of this power you can see what is going on with the rifle. Unless your gun is clamped in a very steady rest you will see movement just aiming. You are looking to adjust your technique to get the aiming movement as small and random as possible. Then you are looking to get your trigger technique such that this movement doesn't change when you release the shoot. The next challenge is to watch the recoil and get that movement consistent between shots.

A key point is to focus on your technique and not worry about where your bullet hits. When your technique is correct the bullet will hit where it should. Very Zen I know :) .
 
kombayotch said:
100 yards is nothing for a good .22LR:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...ecision-Long-Range-22LR-Match-(April-22-2012)

You need decent ammo though. Decent quality match .22LR ammo that won't give you flyers is still a lot cheaper than any accurate centerfire round you can buy or reload. Heck, its still cheaper than the 7.62x39 minute-of-barn steel case corrosive surplus junk. And more accurate!
Click to expand...

I have been shooting steel chinese surplus and at the 100 yard range i have been every bit as accurate as my .308. Just because it's not match grade doesn't mean it's all junk.
I find you can only go so far practising with .22, eventually you need to practise with something with some kick to get you ready/comfortable shooting something bigger then a 22
 
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