Lowering POI of 6.5x52 Carcano

Walther_PPK

Walther_PPK

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
212   0   0
Location
NL
So, I picked up a couple of Carcanos recently and got to try them today. I have no factory ammo, only my own reloads. Shooting them today both rifles (M38 short with fixed rear site and a M91/41 long with adjustable rear site) are shooting high. Like really high. Probably at least 20in at 100yards. I also shot the 91/41 at a target 300+ yards away and it was still just as high over the point of aim.

So my question is: how do I lower the point of impact on my reloads? It would seem natural to just use less powder but I’ve read conflicting reports about that. Some say if you add MORE powder you’ll shoot flater, which may be, but I figure if it was a case of extremely arched trajectory it wouldn’t still be just as high at 300 yards.

My current load is 32grs of IMR-4064 pushing a 140gr SP
 
Jahnj0584 said:
less powder = less FPS = more drop

Why not just fix the front or rear sight though?
Click to expand...

My one and only carbine shoots quite high as well and I'm using the same powder, similar load as the OP.

OP, ask yourself what you're going to be shooting with your rifles and how much "performance" power wise you need to get out of it.

If you're only punch holes in paper out to a hundred yard or even two hundred, you just need to get the bullet to the paper with enough energy to punch a neat hole through it.

If you find your powder charge to be less than 65% of case capacity, go to your local fabric shop and pick up a yard of Dacron fibre. You can pick it up in .5cm to 2cm thicknesses. I pick up the .5cm and cut it up into 1cm squares.

After dumping your powder charge into the case, take one of the Dacron fibre squares and push it into the case, so it's touching the powder and filling up most of the air space, then seat your bullet.

Don't believe the hype that the Dacron fibre will create pressure issues, it's all hype and not reality.

A yard of Dacron fibre is less that $5 and will do hundreds of cases.
 
Was a thing that I read, that back in old days, soldiers aimed and fired at the other guy's belt buckle. Was when iron sighted 400 yard shots were considered "normal" to do.
 
In order to sight the rifle to the ammo I’d need a taller front sight as one rifle is fixed and the other is at the lowest setting. I’m well aware of this. I had a spare front site for the m38 that I welded a couple mm onto but I only got halfway. Still shooting about a foot high at 100yds. I’d rather not have an ungodly tall bubba front sight.

I’ll probably try a reduced charge. Bearhunter is correct that I’m only gonna punch paper, but who knows? Might take the M38 out on a caribou hunt one day. Would be nice if I could hit vitals at 100yards.
 
bearhunter said:
My one and only carbine shoots quite high as well and I'm using the same powder, similar load as the OP.

OP, ask yourself what you're going to be shooting with your rifles and how much "performance" power wise you need to get out of it.

If you're only punch holes in paper out to a hundred yard or even two hundred, you just need to get the bullet to the paper with enough energy to punch a neat hole through it.

If you find your powder charge to be less than 65% of case capacity, go to your local fabric shop and pick up a yard of Dacron fibre. You can pick it up in .5cm to 2cm thicknesses. I pick up the .5cm and cut it up into 1cm squares.

After dumping your powder charge into the case, take one of the Dacron fibre squares and push it into the case, so it's touching the powder and filling up most of the air space, then seat your bullet.

Don't believe the hype that the Dacron fibre will create pressure issues, it's all hype and not reality.

A yard of Dacron fibre is less that $5 and will do hundreds of cases.
Click to expand...

I’ll probably reduce the charge, but what’s the point / benefit of the Dacron fibre anyway? I’m not familiar with this practice.
 
I see 2 solutions. Use a dab of epoxy to glue on a piece of metal, plastic, tubing to give you a higher front sight. The epoxy can be broken off to return the rifle to original condition.

OR, use a flat file to shave down the rear sight and then use a square needle file to cut a new rear sight notch.
 
Walther_PPK said:
I’ll probably reduce the charge, but what’s the point / benefit of the Dacron fibre anyway? I’m not familiar with this practice.
Click to expand...

The Dacron fibre eliminates the issue of to much air space within the cartridge and keeps the powder against the primer.

This also eliminates issues such as inconsistent ignition of the powder or to little powder in a cartridge case failure caused by "detonation" rather than a progressive burn of the powder because of the excessive air space.
 
bearhunter said:
The Dacron fibre eliminates the issue of to much air space within the cartridge and keeps the powder against the primer.

This also eliminates issues such as inconsistent ignition of the powder or to little powder in a cartridge case failure caused by "detonation" rather than a progressive burn of the powder because of the excessive air space.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, thank you.
 
Buy another front sight weld a piece on to make it taller ,file to correct height re-blue. Why monkey with guppy loads?
 
Ganderite said:
I see 2 solutions. Use a dab of epoxy to glue on a piece of metal, plastic, tubing to give you a higher front sight. The epoxy can be broken off to return the rifle to original condition.

OR, use a flat file to shave down the rear sight and then use a square needle file to cut a new rear sight notch.
Click to expand...

X2.

The only way to go IMO is to modify your sights. Playing with loads is folly I think, as you miss out on using what can be the most accurate load, and are seriously restricted with what load or loads "work" at your chosen range (if you can even find one).
 
I won't disagree with altering the sights but it's going to take some pretty deep filing of the rear sight and a VERY TALL front sight combined to even get on the paper at 100 yards, with some of these carbines.

A CGNer, Paul T, went to his local range and another fellow brought his M38 Carbine along. They were hitting a meter high at 50 yards.

I really hate modifying anything on original matching milsurps. That's my main reason for lighter loads that are perfectly safe in the rifles.

I ran into similar issues with those great little straight pull M95 Mannlichers used by the Austro Hungarian Empire. They shoot 1937 dated surplus very high, but not as bad as these little Carcano carbines.
 
I won't disagree with altering the sights but it's going to take some pretty deep filing of the rear sight and a VERY TALL front sight combined to even get on the paper at 100 yards, with some of these carbines.

A CGNer, Paul T, went to his local range and another fellow brought his M38 Carbine along. They were hitting a meter high at 50 yards, please correct if I'm wrong.

I really hate modifying anything on original matching milsurps. That's my main reason for lighter loads that are perfectly safe in the rifles.

I ran into similar issues with those great little straight pull M95 Mannlichers used by the Austro Hungarian Empire. They shoot 1937 dated surplus very high, but not as bad as these little Carcano carbines.
 
Walther_PPK said:
So, I picked up a couple of Carcanos recently and got to try them today.... are shooting high. Like really high. Probably at least 20in at 100yards. I also shot the 91/41 at a target 300+ yards away and it was still just as high over the point of aim.

So my question is: how do I lower the point of impact on my reloads? ...
Click to expand...

The sights on these rifles have a 200yd or 300yd zero, depending on the model. And they are calibrated for 1890 military standard bottlenose 160gr at something like 2100fps (depending on the barrel length).

And probably most importantly, they use a different approach for sight alignment: The front sight should be fully buried in the rear notch.

If you'd like to modify the sights to make them work with a more conventional sight picture, by far the easiest thing to change would be to add height to front sight. I'd try gluing a piece of zip tie to the top of the front sight and see how you like it. If it works for you, then use something more permanent like JB Weld QuickSteel to build it up, and reduce the height and shape it to your liking.
 
alpining said:
The sights on these rifles have a 200yd or 300yd zero, depending on the model. And they are calibrated for 1890 military standard bottlenose 160gr at something like 2100fps (depending on the barrel length).

And probably most importantly, they use a different approach for sight alignment: The front sight should be fully buried in the rear notch.

If you'd like to modify the sights to make them work with a more conventional sight picture, by far the easiest thing to change would be to add height to front sight. I'd try gluing a piece of zip tie to the top of the front sight and see how you like it. If it works for you, then use something more permanent like JB Weld QuickSteel to build it up, and reduce the height and shape it to your liking.
Click to expand...

Or, for a more sturdy improvised front sight, bend a piece of clotheshanger wire (or sheet metal) 90 degrees with about 1.5" projecting up, and afix it ahead of the front sight with a hose clamp. Paint the part you'll see through the rear sight with red paint. Test at the range and use a side-cutter to cut it down to your preferred height. Once you tire of it, consider a more permanent solution.
 
On one of my Carcano Carbines (manufactured 1914) I used JB Weld on the front site to build it way up. Filed the sides flat, then went to the range and shot at 100 yards. Slowly filed down the JB weld on the front site flat until my POA and POI were good at 100 yards. The stuff filed nicely and I don't think it would take much to file it completely away if I wanted it back to stock as it seems quite a bit softer to file than steel. Currently it is still grey as it comes out of the tubes, but I've debated blackening it to make it blend in a little better

My M91 full length rifle (manufactured 1943 I believe) needed no adjustment and hits at 100 yards without changing holds
 
bearhunter said:
I won't disagree with altering the sights but it's going to take some pretty deep filing of the rear sight and a VERY TALL front sight combined to even get on the paper at 100 yards, with some of these carbines.

A CGNer, Paul T, went to his local range and another fellow brought his M38 Carbine along. They were hitting a meter high at 50 yards, please correct if I'm wrong.

I really hate modifying anything on original matching milsurps. That's my main reason for lighter loads that are perfectly safe in the rifles.

I ran into similar issues with those great little straight pull M95 Mannlichers used by the Austro Hungarian Empire. They shoot 1937 dated surplus very high, but not as bad as these little Carcano carbines.
Click to expand...

Drop 400 fps (from ~2380 to <2000) and those M95's shoot to the sights at 100 yards and have plenty of jam for deer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom