M 10 Ross question

HIGHLANDBEAGLES

HIGHLANDBEAGLES

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Everyone worth their salt knows that the M10 bolts were pined to prevent wrong reassembly. One way I was told how to verify this is to just start the rotating bolt head into the receiver but not fully. Then pull the trigger and the bolt will proceed to battery. I have done this and the bolt closes with the pull of the trigger.

The question is - Can a live round be set off before the bolt is fully closed with the bolt assembled correctly ?
Is the striker delayed until the bolt is fully in battery with a properly assembled bolt ?
I have never heard of this problem with the Ross M10.

Thank you in advance for your comments and answers. :confused:
 
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You can hold the rifle at a downward angle and actually see the lugs rotate 90 degrees to a locked position. The improperly assembled 1910 will only have lugs rotating about a quarter of fully engaged. And to improperly assemble a Ross 1910 bolt you have to be a special kind of stupid. It takes a real effort to assemble it wrong.
 
M-10 bolts can be put together wrong. I purposely tried to do it. It took awhile but I did it just to see if it could be done. I also tested with a primed case. Fired with lugs not locked inplace. With it being pinned the chances of it happening is extremely remote. I usually check them by shining a light into the chamber area and seeing that the lugs are engaged. The lugs turn 90 degrees when locked. Should be able to see the top one pointed straight up.
The Ross will fire with a bolt that is put together wrong.
 
I have one of the un-pinned ones and found it very, very difficult to insert the bolt with it assembled incorrectly. With mine, at least, you would have to be incredibly mechanically dysfunctional to chamber a round in that state without knowing something was not right. But a real poor bit of engineering work for it to be possible to assemble the bolt in different ways. Can't do that with a M95.

milsurpo
 
I have had mine- a crudely sporterized model - since 1967. I was nervous about it at first because even as a kid (I was 13) I had heard about the "bolt blowing back" issue. I used it as my first deer rifle for years.

It was only after the advent of the Internet that I heard about the pinned bolt, which it turns out mine is.
 
The pinned bolt modification, which involved alterations to the bolt in addition to the pin in the bolt sleeve, was a WW2 change, long after the Mk. III rifle saw active service.
It is painfully obvious if the bolt is not rotating to lock, assuming the shooter has the slightest understanding of how the rifle works.

Someone who would fire the rifle with the bolt improperly assembled would likely also fire a Lee Enfield with the bolt head removed.
Yes, that has been done.
 
HIGHLANDBEAGLES said:
Everyone worth their salt knows that the M10 bolts were pined to prevent wrong reassembly. One way I was told how to verify this is to just start the rotating bolt head into the receiver but not fully. Then pull the trigger and the bolt will proceed to battery. I have done this and the bolt closes with the pull of the trigger.

The question is - Can a live round be set off before the bolt is fully closed with the bolt assembled correctly ?
Is the striker delayed until the bolt is fully in battery with a properly assembled bolt ?
I have never heard of this problem with the Ross M10.

Thank you in advance for your comments and answers. :confused:
Click to expand...

What you have described is pretty much the only way you can easily de-#### the firing mechanism on an M-10, or MkIII Ross.

As the bolt moves forward and enters the locking lugs in the receiver, it starts rotating towards its fully locked position. The bolt body moves forward simultaneously, and when fully seated, the firing pin tip would be exposed. Therefore, I would not try and de-#### the firing mechanism with a round in the chamber. The Ross firing mechanism, like many other designs that use a firing pin that does NOT use a firing pin return spring, should never be attempted to have the firing pin resting on the primer of a chambered round.

I have not attempted this, but my opinion is that by attempting to de-#### the firing mechanism with a round in the chamber, you're likely to get a "loud surprise", maybe worse.
 
I have seen a Ross M-10 with the bolt installed incorrectly, it was on the shelf at a local gun store. I told them.. To answer your question, if the bolt head is not fully home, the gun wont fire. Case in point, I had a reload that had a partially sized case - it would not allow the bolt to fully close, and the rifle did not fire, and the deer lived to see another day...
I did a series of experiments with cases of different sizings, and came to the conclusion that the Ross had a tight chamber and an interference of only a few thou would prevent the rifle from firing.
 
KotKotofeich said:
^ When the Ross chamber is tight - it's tight! I can't chamber fully resized brass that was fired in LE in my Ross.
Click to expand...

Cases fired in a Lee Enfield and FL sized would not chamber in my II**; made a die to further reduce body diameter. The FL die didn't reduce body diameter enough.
 
T
You already know all about this, but for the those that perhaps don’t:
The Ross chambers were made to (very) high tolerances to use similarly toleranced Canadian ammo. When the Brits turned out no/low tolerance ammo (both in dimension and in annealing) it caused the well known disaster for the Canadians. The problems exist today when I had to scrap 100 rds of properly sized but improperly annealed cases, reformed and re-annealed from .348 Winchester. When a spent case sticks in a Ross it is a MAJOR PITA!
BTW after a misspent life of “Rossing” I have never seen a mis-assembled complete bolt ‘ceptin in RRS. Easy to do whilst (bolt) assembling, but the comment of “particular kind of stupid” applies after that.
Must have lead a sheltered existence.

OGC
 
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Alright, seems like no-one else is gonna bother... I will... payback for trolling all them times.
Smellie saved my kids face (pretty much) as my son was 18 when he picked up the M10 for me...and it was assembled wrongly. He was able to shut that done and bring it back STAT
OP here is the short ( with pictures) version. When you are sliding a PROPERLY ASSEMBLED bolt forward into battery, it should have still have space to lay a thumb sideways across the gap between the Bolt Head and body.
YRxLs9Hl.jpg

There is the space...
LShogyCl.jpg

Here is your 'Rule of Thumb'
This bolt is assembled correctly.
Another trick is to gently slide the bolt closed ( Empty chamber), when you feel the bolt head touch the chamber...you should be able to pull the trigger and the bolt will 'suck into the fired position'...the bolt head will spin into the inlets as it transitions to the fired position.
Rule of Thumb is better IMO
 
cosmic said:
I have seen a Ross M-10 with the bolt installed incorrectly, it was on the shelf at a local gun store. I told them.. To answer your question, if the bolt head is not fully home, the gun wont fire. Case in point, I had a reload that had a partially sized case - it would not allow the bolt to fully close, and the rifle did not fire, and the deer lived to see another day...
I did a series of experiments with cases of different sizings, and came to the conclusion that the Ross had a tight chamber and an interference of only a few thou would prevent the rifle from firing.
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering my question.
 
Ian's film makes the most sense to me as to how users of the M-10 could be injured by having the bolt incorrectly assembled by folks not fully trained & familiar with the Ross. Lovely rifles that weren't suited to the conditions of warfare back then and were very specific in the use of Dominion Arsenal spec MK VII ammo. UK ammo was very inconsistent in cartridge dimensions in WW1, but the No.1 MK III Enfields with their simple & dead reliable actions had generous chamber dimensions to be compatible with all the hastily made .303 stuff being sent to the lines. The Lee action was much better suited to down & dirty fighting conditions to boot.

The Ross M-10 was just too well made for it's own good to serve as general battle rifles for the grunts in those years, but I'm sure there were Canadian snipers using them to good effect.
 
The early #1 MkIII enfield's had their fair share of problems in the trenches with jamming due to dirt and out of spec/poorly manufactured ammo, just as did as the Ross MkIII.

That fact appears to be have been "glossed" over by history!

The problem enfield's were quietly sent to the rear areas for chamber mods, while the Ross was hung out out to dry publicly. Lot's of politics going on at that time, and the Brit's definitely had their undies in a bunch with Canada not adopting the rifle of Mother England straight away. By 1916 the bugs were worked out with various updates, and the Ross became quite reliable. Much like the M-16, it was perhaps put into service a bit too soon.
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
The Ross M-10 was just too well made for it's own good to serve as general battle rifles for the grunts in those years, but I'm sure there were Canadian snipers using them to good effect.
Click to expand...

From the reading/research I have done, it appears that the best sniper of WWI, Canadian Francis Pegahmagabow, used a Ross. 378 confirmed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Pegahmagabow
 
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