m-14 beyond 600m...what is it exactly?

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RickR1100

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Ok, from what I gather from posts here, this system can be tuned up to be really accurate, sub-moa not uncommon. Yet many of the most experienced long range m-14 riflemen here concluded that keeping that accuracy, at distances beyond 600m, is an exercise in spending big bucks, a lot of fine tuning, and perhaps some frustrations too. Now, I don't mean to dispute that, I'm brand new to this rifle pattern, learning quick but I'm a total n00b at this design!

That said, I'm wondering about the specifics...what do you guys feel are the main Achilles heal, the specific items that stand in the way of very long range accuracy for this system? I'm thinking it's a combination of issues, but maybe I'm wrong about that. Bullet design? Lack of freefloating? A heavier trigger pull than a bench-rest precision bolt gun? Scope mount flex? harmonics of the operating rod movement?
 
I found it once again.... My post on my LR project! Been there, done that! Buy yourself a Rem M700, Tikka Varmint T3, Savage M10 or FP10 or BAT, Sako TRG, Win M70 Stealth....

Wanna make your Norinco-Plinko M14 into a M25 DMR or M21 Sniper Wannabe rifle ? READ this first and then decide if you wanna drop the $$ involved.


It's New Year's Eve and my son has a few revellers in the house. They are cool and having a fun time. So I cannot sleep due to the subwoofer's pounding through the house.

Good time to discuss my ventures back in 2002 and 2003.

My first Norinco M305 set me back $ 700 from Milarm and I was glad to get hold of one since this was early 2002 and Marstar's big shipments had not landed for quite a few more months.

I shot a few handloads through the barrel and mike'd the chamber: 17 thou Typically large for the average (10 thou) Norinco M14's that would arrive a few months later. Normal size for the many, many USGI M14's that I through my hands in the mid 80's.

My brother sent me a used Douglas USGI barrel that cost him $ 100 USD. He picked it up at a gun show in Dallas. Previous owner was an NRA NM Course competitor with a "High Master" classification. I was merely a "Sharpshooter". This owner said that he shot 3000 rounds through this barrel and was beginning to drop a few X's from his normal aggregate of 490 points out of 500 points. Yeah, I would be so lucky with my 413 point average....

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.....

I unscrewed the Norc barrel (and relevant parts hanging on the barrel) and sold them on this board. I assembled the Douglas Chrome-Moly barrel. Smooth process to index... very slick, just as I expected. I re-assembled this rifle with ALL USGI parts that I had accumulated from my Dallas gun shows. Back then the US State Department did not list the M14 relevant parts as Verboten since the USA had not initiated OIF, yet.

I used a Rooster33 stainless op rod spring guide, a TRW made USGI bolt, WELDED gas cylinder assembly that cost me a Tim's double-double to have welded. Jamie (on the CGNutz board) reamed out my USGI flash suppressor at an April 2002 clinic here in Collingwood. I had installed a USGI fiberglass handguard that sat 3/16" from the top edges of the forestock, so no filing or relieving was necessary. Yes, the front band handguard retaining tabs were bent upwards to accomodate (I had to anneal it first) the fat shoulders of the Douglas barrel.

I test fired the rifle as it sat glassed into a reinforced USGI glass stock (buildup with many , many layers of glass, as fat as a McMillan fat bastard NM stock). The brass mic'ed to 1.630". Perfectly dead fzcken nuts on at the SAAMI spec of 1.630". A match chamber- RFO (Right On) Life gets better. I had mounted my Leupold LR/T Mark4 M1 6.5 x 20 x 50 mildot reticle scope using an ARMS # 18 mount and Millett Angle - Loc 30mm rings. I know I'm gonna get flamed for swearing BY these rings when many CGNutters will swear AT them, but they work for me and my budget. Not to mention many DCRA medals won at NSCC/CFSAC, and some 50-XV's shot with these cheaper Millett rings. I shot a wack of 5 round groups. Several were 3/4" and touching, many were 1" and touching, 2 of them were 0.5" , but we all know I could have gotten lucky.

Conclusion: shoots into 3/4"... good enough for the girls we go out with. More accurate than I could ever hold it.

Then I showed up at a Precision Rifle match the following weekend at CFB Boredom's Mons Range. I was shooting 155 gr. Sierra Match Kings, Moly-Coated coming out of my barrel at 2800 fps. This is what I observed...

At 300, 400 , 500, 600 yards, my comeups were the EXACT same as my settings on my 26" factory bbl'ed Remington VS .308 sniper rig. Nothing had changed. Life is ducky !! I was impressed with my rifle. This is great. Maybe I should shoot this for the remainder of the season. Wowsers...

Then we moved further back to 800 yard mound. Things changed QUICKLY. Remember that I am shooting the same load/bullet/powder/ammo that my Remington sniper rifle shoots. So now I have to add another 6 MOA to my familiar 800 yard setting, as recorded in my notebook. You do take notes on your scope settings don't you ? I just held ONE mildot higher or so.

Discoveries from this project:

* Up to 600 yards, this would be a great sniper rig, same comeups, tight groups... yeeeeha
* After 600 yards, ballistically you are at a disadvantage with trajectory, time in flight and of course wind deflection
* You want small groups ? Save your money and buy a Tikka, Savage, Rem M700, Win M70 Stealth, SAKO, Weatherby Threat rifle, yada yada yada
* You really gotta love the M14 platform to shoot long range, otherwise you are wasting your time, money, bullets, weekend, etc.
* Shooting Long Range ? Less money gets you a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag Winchester Laredo or Remington Sendero right outta the box, even a custom 6.5 x 284 is cheaper using a Rem M700 action.



So there ya go. If you really and truly wanna drop a pile and I mean a BFP (big pile) of money to build up an M25 DMR wannabe, it can be done, but you might be better off spending less $$ and buying above mentioned tactical rifle(s). Plug for Mysticplayer here.... better yet, give him your money and he can build you a 1000 yard tackdriver!!

In closing: Just like I say in my clinics, SAVE YER Money !
 
It really depends what you are kind of accuracy you are willing to accept and the targets you want to engage. I was able to shoot out to 800M but not with any kind of precision accuracy. With my scope set-up, a 2.75X fixed power IER scout scope, I was barely seeing the figure 11 target at that range.
 
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I have read that keeping the M14 consistently accurate is an issue? Apparently the US military have issues with the Rebuilt M14's maintaining their accuracy, Meaning they require more reg maintenance and tuning to keep that less than 1 moa??
 
probably accuracy at distance- and the conditions they put them through- that sand is ultra-fine like flour, and gets everywhere- believe me, it's a whole world of different than where your average m14 chinese clone lives- i've got 4 of them, 3 real and a norc, and i can go at any time and shoot into 1 inch groups , provided my ammo is good- where they run into problems is that they bed theirs for better accuracy and every time you go to clean it, you disturb that bedding- the problem also exists with the competition match grade rifles-
the way round it for the average shooter was not to strip the rifle at all, or only if it wasn't working- if it was just daily cleaning, provided your trigger group was well lubed, was to just do the barrel, gas cylinder, piston, drop the piston back in, do up the gas plug, clunk test, and you're gtg- of course, this gives you no opportunity to pm your trigger group or gas rod, or any of that other stuff, but who cares?- that's the armourer's job- if it screws up, just turn it in for a new one
the dms also probably verify their rifles before heading out, and any that don't qualify are turned back- and who's not to say that there might be a 10mph wind from the right or left AT THE TARGET?
 
The M14 design is inherently inaccurate. This was the conclusion of a technical committee that was assigned, in 1962, to determine why so many rifles, coming out of three different factories, were failing to pass their final acceptance inspection. Yes, with enough time, and money, and tweaking you can get the gun to shoot well, but it is all out of proportion to the original cost of the rifle or the duration of the benefit.
 
BattleRife said:
The M14 design is inherently inaccurate. This was the conclusion of a technical committee that was assigned, in 1962, to determine why so many rifles, coming out of three different factories, were failing to pass their final acceptance inspection. Yes, with enough time, and money, and tweaking you can get the gun to shoot well, but it is all out of proportion to the original cost of the rifle or the duration of the benefit.
Click to expand...

Well said. You saved me a whack of typing. If you want an accurate rifle, great barrel, decent trigger; get a varmint gun! You pick the brand! :D

You want a great blaster with a numero uno forged receiver for $ 450 bones (give or take) ? Comes with a great magazine system that's proven and inexpensive 5/20 magazines that makes the rifle easier to carry in the hunting fields?

You want a great looking rifle to pose in front of the mirror with? All you gotta do is add a JAE or Sage EBR stock and "Call of Duty: Blue Ops" is your ticket to becoming a number one Mirror Kommando like moi! :ninja:

You wanna non-restricted zombie gitter? Say no more! :eek:

Don't :eek: get ONE of these!

Git TWO of them! :cool:

:cheers:

Barney
 
IF you can get an M1A or M305 to be sub MOA at 200yds, it is sub MOA as far as you want to shoot.

The problem is getting a true sub MOA rifle. Not so easy...

Most rifles will use the 147/150gr class bullet - low BC so these get bounced around way more at LR so the ability to hit at LR gets way tougher.

If you can make a rifle shoot sub MOA with a 155gr palma type bullet at 300yds, it will shoot as well as any bolt rifle with the same accuracy and velocity.

High mag optics will help alot too.

The problem is real true consistent sub MOA performance. These semis have a nasty habit of tossing bullets.

The trigger is also not as nice as bolt rifles. Stock shapes are also not as ergonomic but with something like the new Promag stock properly bedded and set up, there is no reason why it can't work.

Jerry
 
A few years back I watched a televised docmentary of a NATO sniper competition (real snipers not wanna-be's) The US Green Berets with an accurized M21 were soundly beaten at 700 meters & beyond by the Canadian and British teams using thier bolt action rifles. The other details I've forgotten now.
Reading the book entitled "US M14 Rifle-from John Garand to the M21" it bogles the mind the number of modifications done to the M14 receiver to bring it to the designation M21.
On page 309 of this book, is a chapter dedicated to the Rock Island Arsenal "Product Improved" Sniper Rifle a program started in 1975 and very quickly fell to the wayside, due to the end of the Vietnam War. (the next evolution of the M21)
Sobering words from a Mr Snodgrass, a veteran shooter and a Rock Island armorer:

"All concepts have produced less than two MOA at 100 yards using M118 match ammunition. This respresents approximately 100% improvement over the current acceptance standard of the M14 NM Specifications."

My my, that's 'progress' I guess in 1975.......

Edit: I wonder how capable all those refirbrished M14 designated marksman rifles performed in Iraq with US forces?
 
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One of the biggest hurdles to accuracy in the M1A/M305 is their sensitivity to ammo. There is no way to get consistent, reliable performance without constant tuning of the ammo.

And the powders that favor these actions are no longer popular in bolt rifles.

Service rifles will never see this level of TLC and thus they will never shoot to their potential.

So making these rifles shoot is possible but more demanding.

Keeping them shooting IS a chore. But barrel tuners might be a huge aid to this.

Jerry
 
I would have to agree with all the above.

With a stock Poly (slight gas system mods), tons & tons of ammo tuning (and I really mean tons, like 4000 rounds and counting in just under 7 months)
the absolute BEST I have ever gotten is a tiny smidge under 1 MOA with 5 shot groups. And that was an honest 1 MOA, no gimmies.

AMMO, AMMO, AMMO....... It's all about the ammo and it's relation to the gas system.

It's extremely expensive and as Hungry says, you really have to love it, which I do.

I've always been smitten with them.
But shooting 100-200 rounds per week of 168 Sierra Matchking HPBT custom handloads gets very expensive.

That being said, I AM going down that road because it's a fun road and the grin on my face makes it worth the effort.
JAE, Krieger barrel, and all the other bits and pieces are coming.
Will it cost a sh**load, for sure, but I love it.

I suppose in conclusion my suggestion would be to buy the plain jane and a truck load of ammo and see if it you get bitten.
If you want to go down the road further, you can.

I've been bitten and there's no going back for me, it's the only rifle I own now and the only rifle I want to own......till death do us part :D
 
this is a great thread
I'd have to agree with all that's been said.
I have built a handful of sub moa m14 rifles using standard usgi parts on the chinese receiver. Some have been posted up on cgn by thier owners. Wether those rifles are consistantly shooting sub moa i do not know.
The only m14 type rifles i've owned that shoot sub moa are full custom builds, krieger barrels and match chambers.
in the morning i'll be taking 2 freshly built custom rigs to the range. One is a full boat Sage build with krieger medium stainless 18.5" , 1/11 twist and the other is an all new parts TRW/Krieger stainless DMR, 1/12 twist in a standard unbedded stock. will be interesting to record the data. I'll be shooting 168gr federal gold match in the sage and nosler J4 155 in the DMR and both have match .308 chambers + 1 thou (1.631)
I'll report back on the findings.
 
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