M-14S slamfires?

[manbearpig]

ive heard a lot about M-14s and slamfires with soft primers.

most commercial ammo has soft primers, and i assume the risk of improperly seated primers increases with cheaper ammo like some of the $10-12/box .308 softpoints. ive read of this occurring especially with cheap remmy UMC ammo. with surplus ammo stocks drying up, is there any type of commercial ammo specifically made for semi-autos like the garand, M14, etc? ie: with a slightly recessed, harder primer?

the posts on the M14 slamfire issue seem pretty divided - some people say that its all BS and you have nothing to worry about, others say it happens often.

regardless of how likely it is to occur, is there anything you can do to minimize the risk of a slamfire? its a floating firing pin so you cant do something like upgrade the firing pin return spring, but is there anything you can upgrade or have your gunsmith do to reduce the risk of slamfires? a replacement firing pin?

i always have any rifle pointed somewhere safe when i chamber a round, so im not too worried about the 'accidental discharge' part of a slamfire, more about the possible 'kaboom' aspect if it goes off before the bolt locks up.

 

[t-star]

always feed from the mag, never drop 1 in the chamber and force the bolt to climb over- i don't know of any" special" ammo specifically made for semi-autos,

 

[manbearpig]

i know CCI sells special harder mil-spec primers designed for service rifles, are these available in any commercial ammo?

 

[m39a2]

Due to the generous headspace found in these rifles, one should try to stay away from .308 Winchester. .308 and 7.62 NATO are interchangable but they are not the same. M-14's can be set up to fire one or the other and even both but with a rifle not specifically set up for .308, use 7.62!

Scott

 

[Canuck44]

If you reload full length resizing is a must. The firing pin has no spring retention and as has been stated always load from the magazine and don't just drop the bolt when loading the first round.

Take Care

Bob

 

[manbearpig]

If you reload full length resizing is a must. The firing pin has no spring retention and as has been stated always load from the magazine and don't just drop the bolt when loading the first round.

Take Care

Bob

if i ever do decide to reload for it ill source some harder primers and maybe even seat them lower than normal so they are slightly recessed. but im more worried about commercial ammo right now - which i have absolutely no control over.

Hungry here: Yes CCI # 34 primers are harder, but your #### will not fall off, so don't rush out and buy them or special order them. I've been shooting with Winchester primers since 1985, and my #### is still intact. Like everyone is suggesting: load from the magazine. If you truly must load one at at time (some ranges have members with LIEBERAL Pickles up their asses... ) then have the bullet tip partway up the feed ramp, or push it down the magazine follower (about half way to the rear of the magazine) and the feed lip on the RIGHT side will hold the cartridge down. Then give your op rod a light 'slap' to the rear as you shoulder this M14/M1A.

That way, the bolt has some resistance to it's forward travel. Using a Garand ? This is where using a SLED (Single Loading Ejecting Device) comes in handy. They can be purchased from w w w.champchoice.com for all of $ 11.00 and this modified M1 enbloc clip will make the Garand think that it's an M14 on slow fire. I demonstrated this in all of my M14 Clinics. You will see this done in the 2004 Abbotsford Clinic CD Set that I'm burning right now as I type.

Okay, here's a link to the ebay site... 'Creedmoor Sports' in Kalifornia for the SLED...

http: //cgi.ebay.ca/M1-Garand-Single-Round-Clip_W0QQitemZ7166358074QQihZ015QQcategoryZ137007QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Still looking for what they look like ? Get over to Google.ca and type in "Garand SLED". Sometimes there are drawings depending upon which search engine you can use. These plans allow you to make your own 'SLED'. These SLEDs make life easy for you and prevent chambering around (loosely) and then letting the M1 Garand bolt FLY HOME, without any resistance. That's when you are tempting a slamfire....


is there anything i can do to lessen the strike of the firing pin on a chambered round? ie: replace the firing pin for a lighter titanium one? i know they sell these for ARs, do they have them for M14s?

Save your money and shoot with the USGI firing pin. Nah, I have not seen a titanium firing pin for the M1 Garand like the AR15 family. Spend your savings on practice ammo...


also you say 'dont drop the bolt when loading your first round'... arent these semis specificaly designed for this? i mean i understand the issue of chambering rounds that are not in the magazine, and never do this anyways. but i always thought that the bolts of semis are specifically tensioned with the amount of force necessary to drag a round from the magazine and chamber it, so just dropping it is fine.
ie: that single-feeding it not from the magazine results in too much force when chambering, and conversely interfering with the bolt when its dragging a round from the mag might result in insufficient force to properly chamber.

Due to the generous headspace found in these rifles, one should try to stay away from .308 Winchester. .308 and 7.62 NATO are interchangable but they are not the same. M-14's can be set up to fire one or the other and even both but with a rifle not specifically set up for .308, use 7.62! Scott

have there been headspace issues with the recent production (ie: not 10-15 years ago) Norincos?

 

[t-star]

no, you don't want to lessen the firing pin blow as you'll get inconsistant ignition- what you're referring to is an OUT OF BATTERY fire, which is caused by the firing pin being stuck in the forward position and contacting the primer BEFORE the bolt is locked into the breech- some people call it a slam-fire which it really isn't- this is a VERY UNUSUAL condition( i think there's been ONE instance of this on this board, and it was an OLD norc- what i'm referring to is dropping the round directly into the chamber and then slamming the bolt, which can do an out of battery and or possibly break the extractor- yes, some semis can do this( my remmy 742 can, and it's right in the loading instructions) but the 14 series isn't designed for it
as for the headspacing thing, it DEPENDS ON THE RIFLE- my old norc has no headspacing problems, and as long as you stick to 7.62 surplus and /or new commercial ammo you'll have no problems- it's when you start to reload that the headspacing thing comes into play, and a search on this board will yield a wealth of info on the subject

 

[ian_in_vic]

One easy thing to do would be ensure the bolt is clean and that the firing pin is dry. Before reassembling the rifle make sure you can rattle the firing pin in the bolt.

 

[manbearpig]

im pretty obsessive with keeping guns, especially semis, clean.
also i always load from the magazine and always have the muzzle pointed safely when i drop the bolt, even on something like a 10/22.
ill take extra care to make sure the firing pin is totally dry and clean.
is the Norinco firing pin adequate or should it be replaced for USGI ASAP?

i dont mean to start a big .308/7.62x51 or .223/5.56x45 argument but what is the consensus of some actual Norinco M14S owners on using commercial .308, now that we are having problems getting milsurp ammo from the states?
i know from the forums here that several people take their M14s hunting with them, are they handloading to mil-spec, pulling bullets on 7.62 and replacing with softpoints, or are they just shooting commercial .308 ammo?

 

[recce]

I use mine to hunt (no luck this year) and use 150 grain commercial ammo with no problems. Like you I only load from the magazine and ensure that the firing pin moves smoothly and the bolt face is not dirty.

 

[t-star]

im pretty obsessive with keeping guns, especially semis, clean.
also i always load from the magazine and always have the muzzle pointed safely when i drop the bolt, even on something like a 10/22.
ill take extra care to make sure the firing pin is totally dry and clean.
is the Norinco firing pin adequate or should it be replaced for USGI ASAP?

i dont mean to start a big .308/7.62x51 or .223/5.56x45 argument but what is the consensus of some actual Norinco M14S owners on using commercial .308, now that we are having problems getting milsurp ammo from the states?
i know from the forums here that several people take their M14s hunting with them, are they handloading to mil-spec, pulling bullets on 7.62 and replacing with softpoints, or are they just shooting commercial .308 ammo?

i just use ordinary 308 win , anything below 170 will do -nothing will be accomplished by replacing your norc firing pin with a usgi- you may even make the situation worse as the firing pin may be longer in the norc- then you'll get NO CONTACT because of the shorter pin- if you decide to go this route, get a WHOLE usgi bolt and have it fitted

 

[Orvis]

Personally, I think the whole Norc M14 slam fire thing has been over-dramatized.
Afterall, with all the M14 owners in Canada and on this board you would think that if it was such a real problem you would hear of more incidences happening.
I can only think of maybe one or 2 since I've been on CGN (5years) and I believe they were all cases of a dirty bolts were the firing pin was jammed forward?
Personlly, I don't believe using .308Win verses 7.62nato has any bearing either (sorry Scott.) That arguement has been ongoing for years with no evidence to confirm it.
I've used just about every type of ammo (all .150gr of course) with all 3 of my M14s that I've owned over the years, .308 and 7.62nato commercial, handloads, surplus, and I've never had an issue.
Could a slamfire or out of battery happen? Of course. It could happen with any semiauto rifle, but I don't think it is an inherent problem with the Norc M14.
With any semiauto, proper and regular maintenance and cleaning along with proper use (feed from the magazine) will prevent the likelihood of a slamfire from happening.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

I have limited experience with the M14, being a new owner, but I find good commercial 308 ammunition (Federal Vital shock 150) significantly more accurate than the 7.62 nato. Not necessary to pull bullets from nato ammo and swap in soft points in my opinion.

im pretty obsessive with keeping guns, especially semis, clean.
also i always load from the magazine and always have the muzzle pointed safely when i drop the bolt, even on something like a 10/22.
ill take extra care to make sure the firing pin is totally dry and clean.
is the Norinco firing pin adequate or should it be replaced for USGI ASAP?

i dont mean to start a big .308/7.62x51 or .223/5.56x45 argument but what is the consensus of some actual Norinco M14S owners on using commercial .308, now that we are having problems getting milsurp ammo from the states?
i know from the forums here that several people take their M14s hunting with them, are they handloading to mil-spec, pulling bullets on 7.62 and replacing with softpoints, or are they just shooting commercial .308 ammo?

 

[Hitzy]

The M1 and M14 have firing pin recesses in the receiver to prevent slamfiring/out of battery firing. As the bolt slams home before rotating into lock, the firing pin is actually stopped by the receiver preventing forward momentum and slamfires. Problems come from out of spec receivers, bolts, and firing pins, as well as high primers, improperly resized cases, dirt, etc. etc. but the gun as designed, was built to prevent this.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

The M1 and M14 have firing pin recesses in the receiver to prevent slamfiring/out of battery firing. As the bolt slams home before rotating into lock, the firing pin is actually stopped by the receiver preventing forward momentum and slamfires..... but the gun as designed, was built to prevent this.

Is there an easy way to verify the correct operation of this?

 

[beltfed]

I've loaded ammo with Federal 210m primers without issue (probably some of the softer primers out there), but I always strip rounds from the magazine, and ensure I don't have high primers when seating them (one should do this for all their handloaded ammo anyhow). I have the CCI #34 & 41 primers, and to be honest, I can't tell if they provide significant protection from a slam fire moreso than any other primer. I've tested them against regular primers by ejecting live rounds from the chamber at the range, and both the AR and the M-14 leave the tell-tale 'dimple' on the primer - same same for all the primers tested (sm. & lg. Fed., Win., CCI, Rem.). The dimple was no smaller with the 34s or 41s., so I wouldn't go out of my way to load with them -If someone needed to depend on the primer not to give them a slam fire, I'm guessing they have bigger problems.

As to the 7.62mm NATO vs. .308 Winchester debate, If you have a NATO spec'd chamber (get your fired cases mic'd -hey Barney?) just don't expect much life if at all from your brass, and spend time during your case prep. to inspect the cases.

 

[Northman999]

As was alluded to earlier, we may be talking ourselves into paralysis by analysis sometimes here on CGN, particularly with the M14.

Right now the M14S is being sold across the country by several retailers and some of them (most?) are selling it as a semi auto .308, period. Also the recievers are marked 308 and not 7.62x51. For the typical person buying an M14 there is no mention made of precautions for slam fires, no mention made of ammunition limitations, nothing. Just, "Here is your semi auto .308, have a nice day."

Now I'm not trying to be disrespectful to all the experience or information on this site, but I'll bet the typical Canadian M14 buyer picks up his rifle, a few boxes of his favorite commercial .308 win ammuntion and heads to the range or hunting grounds and lives happily ever after, not ever having removed the cosmoline from his gun (who but us here would think of detail stripping and scrubbing a NEW gun??), not worrying about 7.62x51 vs.308, not worrying about using light bullets or slow burning powders in his gun, or what kinds of primers his ammo has, or...blah, blah, blah.

I mean, if a guy has a slam fire with his other semi-auto's, it's blamed on a dirty gun or basically chalked up to the semi-auto action and nobody mentions it or gets excited. But even a rumor of a Norc M14 having a problem and people are practically up in arms and asking questions like "Can I fire .308 in my M14S?" Well, what does your reciever say? When you buy a 300 win mag, do you phone around and ask your buddies if you can fire 300 win mag ammo in it? No.

So let's all take a deep breath and relax.

 

[recce]

It's not so much the primer cup hardness with the CCI's as the space between the cup and the anvil to prevent slam fires. If you chamber NATO 7.62 and .308 you will see the same dimple. If you could dissect the primer you would see the difference.

 

[manbearpig]

when asking about slamfires i was referring to the M14/M1A in general, not specifically the Norincos - not trying to add to any negative Norinco press at all - i like Norinco
believe me that i take any bad press with a grain of salt. im sure a lot of the people having slamfires because of single-feeding, improper reloads with high primers, or even not cleaning the cosmoline from the gun properly will jump all over the M14 design, Norinco, etc before admitting to any fault of their own.

a while back i fired my buddy's M14S and examined the chambered/ejected rounds and they had a slight dimple on the primer... naturally this worried me. i forgot about it at the time but now that i ordered a Norinco i figured id ask.

so the dimpled primers are nothing to worry about? i have to admit seeing them like that really gives me the creeps. im not in the habit of chambering live rounds that i dont intend to fire in an area where theyre not safe to fire but it still gives me the willies that the pin is striking them enough to leave a significant indent

i assume that this primer strike occurs at lockup, right? so the likelihood of an out of battery fire from such a light strike is extremely minimal - and even if it did occur the round would be mostly chambered so it wouldnt be that catastrophic?
so as long as people keep the firing pins clean and always point the muzzle in a safe direction when dropping the bolt the worst thing that will happen is you get a bit of a suprise and send one into the dirt?

 

[Canuck44]

Hitzy

"The M1 and M14 have firing pin recesses in the receiver to prevent slamfiring/out of battery firing"

I am not going to suggest I am any kind of authority on this subject but those who carried and have used the M14 for many more years than I, would disagree with this statement. In fact, those who I respect, who fall into this category, made it clear to me that the M 14 will slamfire or fire out of battery if conditions are right and the advice as to loading from the magazine and lowering the bolt rather than just dropping it. The individuals are ex-military US types who served when the gun was in service.

One reason why when reloading for the M 14 all cases should be fully resized vs neck sizing to ensure the smooth loading of the round.

RECCE you have had experience in this area, with other semis is it a concern given the firing pin free floats in the M 14?

Take Care

Bob