M-14S slamfires?

Northman999 said:
A
Right now the M14S is being sold across the country by several retailers and some of them (most?) are selling it as a semi auto .308, period. Also the recievers are marked 308 and not 7.62x51. For the typical person buying an M14 there is no mention made of precautions for slam fires, no mention made of ammunition limitations, nothing. Just, "Here is your semi auto .308, have a nice day."
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Guess what I did with my first M14s?
150 gr, Winchester ammo loaded one by one through the chamber.
That was before someone at the club showed me how to turn
the auto selector on :)

I did about 50 rounds of .308 Winchester factory ammo, all fed
through the chamber, one by one.

I did not even clean the rifle, I took it straight from the "white, chinese
box" and started loading .308 Win.

Am I a typical, M14 newbie? Probably.
 
Slamfires are caused by improperly loaded ammo not the rifle. Seat the primers correctly and you'll have no issues.
CCI #34 "milspec" primers are a marketing gimmick. You don't need them. Regular large rifle primers have been used in ALL milsurps(MG's included) long before CCI's marketing department saw an opportunity.

Hungry here: Thanks sunray !! Naysayers out there will alarm everyone and tell you that if you ain't shooting with CCI # 34 primers then yer #### will fall off. :evil:
 
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Just to see what would happen I loaded 10 or 12 (I forget exactly now) rounds with Federal Large pistol primers. These are perhaps the softest, most sensitive primers around.
I used un-sized fired cases.
I single loaded each case directly into the chamber 10 times, and dropped the bolt.
Not once in 100 or 120 tries did a primer pop. They all had dents in them, but no firings. Then I dropped the hammer on each and all the primers fired.

Hungry here: A very convincing test, but Please (within the right context, and I'm trying to be sensitive) don't do this test at all, gentle readers. Needless to say, you will be tempting a slam fire.... AND your #### WILL fall off. LOL


Now I'm not saying that my hour-and-a-bit of testing was exhaustive, nor was it definative, but it certainly was indicative that the out of battery firings are far from easy to replicate, given a clean gun, and properly seated primers.

Hungry here: Well said... Gentle readers: this is the message that we are trying to get out. Right here and RFN (right now), clean boomstick, clean chamber, properly seated primers, feeding from the enbloc clip (M1 Garand lovers) or feeding from the magazine. And if you are using that silly short 5 rd (hard to extract the mag) magazine, then push the cartridge base down HALFWAY along the feedlips, your bullet tip will be touching the feed ramps, then let the op rod forward on it own power. That half inserted cartridge will provide resistance for the bolt and now yer free floating firing pin ain't gonna give ya a slam fire.
 
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sunray

An out of battery firing in the M 14 can also be caused by a case sticking in the chamber due to not being resized properly. As you know the firing pin in the M 14 is not supported by a spring, inertia takes over when the case gets stuck and things come apart in a hurray.

As a general comment to the thread:

To attempt a slam fire or out of battery ignition is tentatmount to insanity because no matter how informed you think you are, no matter how set your opinion is you might just be wrong and having a gun come apart in your hands is not one of life's experiences you want to endure.

I'll continue to rely on those with far more experience than I and if those who I respect tell me to fully resize my cases for the gun, load the gun from the magazine to prevent out of battery or slamfires than I will take advantage of their knowledge. While I respect the exuberance of youth I did manage to listen to what my Grand dad and Dad had to say about certain things. Didn't smooth all the bumps of the road of life but it did prevent some major accidents.

Take Care

Bob
 
Hungry:
Perhaps I was unclear.

The fired, unsized cases I used were not completely reloaded. I only seated new primers in the otherwise empty cases.
I think the risk was well within acceptable limits.

Some day when I have the time, perhaps I'll do the test again, only this time I'll drop the bolt on each case 100 times rather than just 10 times.
And then maybe I'll try seating some primers a little high as well; but I suspect that the "high-primer" slam fire is actually more likely when feeding from the mag, because the rather sharp lower edge of the bolt can contact the high primer as the cartridge is tipping forward to enter the chamber.
Maybe.
 
"have there been headspace issues with the recent production (ie: not 10-15 years ago) Norincos?"
Yes!! The last batch of SOCOM's we did up for P & D all had pretty gererous headspace and would, for the most part swallow up the NATO "NO GO" gauge of 1.640. We replaced the bolts in all 10 guns we did and lapped in the headspace for about the middle of the .308, 7.62mm tollerances.
We have never had a slam fire reported in any of the rifles we have built/rebuilt. As a matter of interest, during the National Match at camp Perry, all of the "Slow Fire" shooting is done from an open bolt one round loaded at a time. I used a Garand, round loaded in chamber and allowing the bolt to slam forward and home. I seem to think the M-14 guys did the same but they might have loaded a round into the mag a pulled back the bolt slightly to release the hold open catch. No slam fires there either!

Scott
 
"...due to not being resized properly..." That being improperly loaded ammo. Reloaded ammo that is full length resized every time and with properly seated primers will cause no problems.
 
some factory brass is slightly larger.
for example, Igman - while i love the ammo and its very accurate - is slightly oversize... almost like it has only been neck-sized or something.
on my bolties i have to slam the bolt home to get it to properly chamber. since im primarily a bolt user this has never really worried me before, but after reading this thread i think i will keep it away from my M14.
 
Primers

"Slam-fires are an ever present danger with Service Rifles (particularly with the M1 and M14 family). A slam-fire occurs when a round discharges as the bolt is closed. This can result in an accidental discharge with no other damage, or it can virtually destroy the rifle and injure the shooter. … Unfortunately, most slam-fire accidents are due to improperly assembled handloads, sometimes combined with poor gun-handling technique. … Virtually all Service Rifles utilize firing pins that rest freely within the bolt. Referred to as a free floating firing pin, it will actually strike the primer lightly when the bolt is closed. This results in a slight dimple in the primer, which is plainly visible if the unfired round is extracted. This isn’t a problem with military ammunition because they use primers with thicker cups specifically because of this. However, it can be hazardous with the more sensitive commercial primers. The risk increases with high primers, headspace problems, and poor gun handling technique.” (Page 166)

And Later:

“I 1994, CCI began marketing a line of rifle primers specifically manufactured to meet the military specifications for cup thickness and sensitivity. … Their use in military-type rifles with floating firing pins should decrease the possibility of a slam-fire as long as the pocket is properly prepared, and the primer is properly seated.” (Page 171)

Sierra Rifle and Handgun Reloading Data, Edition V. Copyright 2003 by Sierra Bullets LP.
 
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Is the dented primer phenomenon universal because I see no indication of primer indentation on the rounds removed from the chamber on my gun.
 
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sunray said:
Hungry here: Thanks sunray !! Naysayers out there will alarm everyone and tell you that if you ain't shooting with CCI # 34 primers then yer #### will fall off. :evil:
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Hungry, you seem to be overly concerned about your #### falling off.
I'm more concerned about my ear being blasted off.:runaway:
Thats gotta sting a bit.
 
manbearpig said:
did you drop the bolt on them or ease the bolt on them?

anyone else have problems with Igman ammo? i love this stuff in bolt guns but it is hard to chamber. anyone ever use it in their M14?
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I pull back the op rod handle to unlatch it, then let go so it slams closed. That's the way I figure the bolt closes on the second and every following cartridge. I shot a deer with cartridge number one. Cartridge number 2 got manually extracted by me and placed back in the mag so I wouldn't lose it. No primer dent. A second mag that contained a first loaded cartridge that was of course never fire, also lacks any dent. They are federal cartridges.
 
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