M1 Garand newbie needs a hand...

Paul_M

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I recently got my first Garand - an H&R made between '54 and '56 - but I'm having an issue with it. I've stripped it, including the bolt, and thoroughly cleaned it, but it's having extraction issues. The extractor itself seems to be working properly but the casings are getting stuck in the chamber. See the pic below - the extractor is tearing apart the brass but not pulling it out of the chamber. I've cleaned the chamber and bore with Gunslick Pro foam that turned blue, indicating a lot of copper fouling, as well as scrubbing it with the brass brush on the GI tool and some G96 solvent. This is happening with full enblocs and with single rounds. What do you think could be going on here? Could it be the ammo I'm shooting? It's Winchester 150gr. Power-Points. Thanks Nutz.

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what is the factory win loading info??? 150g ??

not the grand expert but have put a few rounds down range with a semi

1st guess is a dirty chamber

2nd weak recoil spring

3rd ???

did the rifle ever work right???

look at brass and look for any inperfections
i can not tell from the pictures of your brass but it looks very rough

i have seen brass that has been ground into the sand all day and looked better than your brass

hope you fix your problem
 
Maybe I missed some grunge in the chamber, but I worked it over pretty hard, so maybe not. The brass is factory Winchester right out of the box, nothing wrong with it. It was doing this every second or third shot last week before I stripped and cleaned it, now it's every shot...why do I seem to be going backwards in this process?
 
your on the right path, just use a .410 ga. bore brush, and a .410 ga swab "cotton thing"
to clean your chamber, probably rust in it, and dont be shy with the solvent. mine got a bit rusty in the chamber from corrosive korean ammo. also don't forget to clean the gas system by pulling the plug after cleaning a garrand especially if using the bore scrub foam stuff, which with any semi i don't recommend.
 
Take a close look at the base of the fired rounds...see how the case bulges?
If you have a caliper measure the base just ahead of the extractor cut-out on the case, then measure just above that about 1/10 of an inch...you most likely will get quite a bit of difference. By the photo you can see one side of the case has no bulge and other has a bulge. This could indicate an over-sized chamber, most likely a possible cause of your extraction problems.
Follow the advise of the other posters try again then do a measurement on the fired cases.
 
Alonzo, your eyes are sharper than mine, I can't see it, and unfortunately, I don't have any calipers. Assuming you're right, what's the fix for an oversize chamber?
 
Is nobody going to mention that the modern ammo he used uses slow burning powder, which creates too much port pressure on the gas system of a Garand? This is likely at least part of the problem with the damage to the brass.

Consider buying one of the two systems available to reduce the pressure delivered to the gas piston on the Garand. McCann or Schuster.

Brownell's

Check out page 105 for the Schuster M1/M1A Adjustable Gas System and page 106 for the McCann M1 Garand Adjustable System.

The McCann plug was developed so heavy bullets with slow powders could be used without wrecking the rifle. In one of my books (I think Kuhnhausen's) it says the gas pressure at the port is supposed to be around 6000 PSI. There are photos on the Net of Garands with the receiver split across the serial numbers from loads that exceeded port pressure specs. With the plugs someone can develop a heavy bullet/slow powder load and then use the jet that vents the most pressure while still allowing the rifle to cycle.

The plugs aren't needed if the loads are made to Army specs. Reloading for the Garand is different from reloading for other rifles. You have to consider max chamber pressure (covered in the reloading manuals) and max port pressure (NOT covered).
 
Cantom, I had a similar thought...I know that port pressure can be an issue with my M-14, so I was advised to keep the bullet weight around 147gr. to avoid bending the op-rod. I assumed it was the same with the Garand so I went for 150gr. bullets. If you're right, how would an over-pressure at the gas port effect case extraction from the chamber?
 
Cantom, I had a similar thought...I know that port pressure can be an issue with my M-14, so I was advised to keep the bullet weight around 147gr. to avoid bending the op-rod. I assumed it was the same with the Garand so I went for 150gr. bullets. If you're right, how would an over-pressure at the gas port effect case extraction from the chamber?

The piston would be hit with way too high of pressure, forcing the op rod back too fast(with potential for bending), thus the extractor would be trying to tear off the case head.

I wouldn't fire it till you sorted this issue out.

BTW, a ghetto solution...the McCann uses about 5 or so jets, which are just allen key screws with a succession of jet holes in them. You could make your own, or just try drilling tiny holes in the middle of a gas plug...basically you want to bleed off some pressure. You're only altering a small, cheap part.
You could also drill a bigger hole in the middle of the gas plug, like 1/4" or so, and make your Garand a straight pull single shot, till you get the jet thing sorted out. That puts zero stress on the op rod, only what you do with your hand.
 
It is hard to inspect a M-1's chamber, but it sounds as if you have scrubbed yours out, and there are none of the characteristic marks on the cases left when a chamber is rough or pitted.
It may be that the action is opening while residual pressure is still too high. An extractor can rip through the rim when this is happening. Would be worth trying different ammunition.
Looking at the photo, there appear to be frosted lines running around the cases just ahead of the expansion ring. Section a casehead, and see if there is any sign of an incipient separation. This would be a headspace issue.
 
First off, friend, you really need to know exactly how a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle works.... and why it works that way. The very best book on your rifle is the one I recommend. It is "Hatcher's Book of the Garand" (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, USA) and it was written by Major-General Julian S. Hatcher, a personal friend of John Garand AND who was intimately involved in the Garand rifle program from beginning to end. There are manuals, yes, but there is NO better book on the topic of your rifle. Another book which will really help you a lot is by the same author: "Hatcher's Notebook". Same publisher and it is back in print simply because it is so very useful and there is nothing else in the English language that covers more than a tenth of its material. This book, by itself, is an education on rifles, ammunition and the development of both in the 20th century. I first saw a copy nearly 50 years ago and I STILL find it a fountain of information. On a knowledge-per-dollar basis, it is the best investment you will ever make.

Further: Winchester sporting brass tends to be a little softer than military brass. Normally, this is actually a safety feature, but there is something wrong ENOUGH with your rifle that it is becoming a blasted nuisance.

The absolute ballistic performance of this ammunition is not far-enough out from military performance to give the problems you are encountering. Military spec for your ammo was a 152-grain bullet at 2800 ft/sec MV, pushed by about 50 grains of IMR-4895 powder, which was developed specially fore the .30-'06 cartridge. Actual weight of charge will vary slightly from Lot to Lot. This is a fairly quick powder, between 3031 and 4064 in RBR. For gas issues, you shouldn't really use anything slower than these for a Garand.

My own Garand 4337### is a peacetime Springfield in about 98% condition. It eats Winchester ammo very well indeed and rather likes it. I don't think the ammo is your problem.

Your brass looks a bit scruffy in the photo here, although I really wish it was clearer.

There were TWO models of combination tool issued with the Garand, and I don't know which model you have. One model had a replaceable chamber brush, and this is the one most commonly seen. The OTHER model had a chamber reamer which was designed specially for removing RUST from the insides of chambers. I think this is your problem. If we had the rifle HERE, we could dope this out in about 15 minutes AND repair the problem, but it isn't here, so this will have to do.

On the better of the two Garand combination tools, there is a wobbly thingie that looks like a dildo for a perverted puppy. It is split down the middle (actually, the cut is made on a milling machine with a slitting saw). It is about 2 inches long and about 3/8 of an inch in diameter. The purpose of this wobbly thingie is to ream rust scales out of your chamber. This was a BIG problem back in the days of corrosive ammunition and tropical climates with wars happening in the middle of them. This reamer is on its shaft rather wobbly in order that it will work to clean the chamber without your having to remove the barrel from your rifle.... or even disassemble the critter. It was a field-expedient fix for the problem I think you have.

What you do is head on down to the hardware store and pick up a couple of sheets of 600-grit wet-or-dry paper. Stop at the gas station on the way home and scrounge a couple of empty oil bottles from their garbage. There will be a few drops left in each and you only need a few drops for the next part of this. After that, stop at the GM dealer and get a tube of LUBRIPLATE 105. Yes, this is a type of grease BUT it is approved for the M-1 Rifle AND it is necessary in order to keep your rifle from battering itself to bits.

Cut one of your sheets of 600 wet-or-dry into strips an inch and a half wide and about 4 inches long. Wrap one of these around the chamber-cleaning reamer, folding an end over so that it anchors inside the reamer. Run this into the chamber, turning the reamer as you do so. When it's all the way in, give it a couple of turns and bring it out. If it shows any brown discolouration, you have RUST in your chamber, which is why your rounds are sticking. Put a few drops of the motor oil onto the wet-or-dry and run it back in, turn it half a dozen times and bring it out. Remove the wet-or-dry from the reamer and substitute a 4x2 cleaning patch, run that in and dry the chamber. Now run in a fresh piece of the wet-or-dry, turn a couple of turns, bring it out and inspect. If there is any evidence of remaining rust, repeat the process. When there is no more evidence of rust, you can grease the rifle up properly with the Lubriplate and take it back to the range for a test.

I think your problems will be solved.

The Garand rifle normally is the most forgiving and reliable gas-operated semi-auto rifle and it has the least number of problems.... if it is kept clean and fed right. I have NEVER had a stoppage with my rifle.... but I did luck out and get one that was absolutely brand-new. I have run into rifles with problems (as yours) but in every case the problem was down to maintenance, lack thereof, bad ammo (and this includes 99% of WW2 ammo) or just plain too much ammo down the pipe.

A point to remember if you get any surplus ammo: American .30-'06 military ammo was not all noncorrosive until late in 1953. That 1969 Lake City stuff that turned up here from 'Nam a few years ago was just about perfect, but there still is lots of old corrosive junk to be found, so be careful.

DO have fun with the toy.

Really hope this helps.
 
Wow... I'm a newbie when it comes to feeding the M1 Garand. I've been lucky enough to find .308 barrels over the years and convert them immediately. My experience with the .30-06 loads and powders are very limited so I am going to school on these suggestions. Thanks for all that good learning and helpful experience sharing! :D
 
The extractor tearing through the casehead is a classic indication of a fouled chamber which is causing the brass to adhere and not extract as it should. the remedy for this is to scour the chamber with solvent and the GI chamber brush as you have done. if this still does not suffice, the barrel could be removed and the chamber polished.

As indicated, correct ammo is essential for the Garand to operate properly. This may also be contributing to your extraction problem. This means using MILSPEC .30-06 ammo or FL resized handloads with 150-168gr bullets and IMR 4895 or 4064 powder. Many pages have been written about this. The MILSPEC propellant for the Garand was IMR4895. Use 46/47 gr of this powder and a 150gr FMJ bullet for openers. This relates to the proper pressure pulse being generated at the gas port in order to cycle the action at the proper velocity. Too quick op rod retraction on firing would result in extraction occuring too soon after detonation with the result that the extractor would rip through the casehead rather than extract the brass(basically the fired case needs enough dwell time to contract after firing so that it breaks it's adherence with the chamber wall and can be easily extracted). A secondary consequence is that the op rod may bend.

It's tough to get a read on your brass from the pics, but it would be prudent to have the headspace checked in any event. Your brass may be showing a stretch line around it which is an indicator of excessive headspace.
 
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I'm going to try the bore brush again and the sandpaper to really clean the crap out of the chamber. If that doesn't work, maybe I'll try the adjustable gas plug. Ammo selection around here is pretty bad - Winchester or Federal 150gr. soft points. Would the powders be significantly different between manufacturers?

I don't have the tool to measure headspace.
 
Cantom is right about high gas port pressure, not to be confused with high chamber pressure. If you ever looked at the factory ballistics chart the figures are given for a 26 inch barrel. In simple terms to play it safe the factory always loads to lower pressures with slower burning powders.

Your M1 had its pressure port adjusted for IMR-4895, if too slow a burning powder is used the gas port increases with a corresponding more violent ejection cycle. This is what is causing your rims to be ripped off the case (High gas port pressure) caused by slower burning powders.

Below the M1 used 50 grains of IMR-4895 with the 148-150 grain bullet.

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A simple way to clean your chamber is to us a 20 gauge shotgun cleaning mop using Kroil and J&B bore paste on the mop.

Also please note you are NOT shooting military grade cases with thicker base area construction. Winchester cases are on the thin and skinny side and not designed for military chambers.

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All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read.
 
Thanks for the ammo info. I don't reload though, so I'm limited to surplus ammo, which I haven't found, or commercial ammo. What would you recommend as far as the commercial stuff goes?
 
Thanks for the ammo info. I don't reload though, so I'm limited to surplus ammo, which I haven't found, or commercial ammo. What would you recommend as far as the commercial stuff goes?

As a Garand owner, powder and bullet weight are a big deal.

I would encourage you to get into reloading. Not only can you make Garand specific, highly accurate bullets, but over a year of shooting it will have paid for itself and from then on it's like paying 50% less for every bullet. I went with a $30 lee hand press, a set of dies, a scale, a digital caliper and a $20 lee primer tool and away I went. Minimal cost for setup, and fun too!

Oh, and I shot American Eagle 30-06 150 Gr with my 1942 Springfield, and it did quite well. American Eagle actually makes rounds designed for the Garand, but I can't say I've ever seen them in stock anywhere.
 
Federal is now making 168gr match ammo to Garand specs. I do not know if this is available in Canada at present. Unfortunately stocks of good MILSPEC .30-06 ammo have been gone for many years, so the best bet is to get into reloading. The cost of your set-up can be recovered over time if you do any amount of shooting.
As pointed out, commercial .30-06 ammo is loaded with slower burning propellants to maintain high velocities and keep chamber pressures low. Everybody seems mezmerized by higher velocities and this stuff is all good for a .30-06 bolt gun, but bad ju-ju for the Garand.

And go easy on the abrasives in the chamber to avoid enlarging headspace or getting the chamber out of round. It would be best to use some very fine steel wool wrapped around the chamber brush for this. Use one of the small battery powered lights with the flexible extension to get a look inside the chamber as well.

When reloading, be advised that different lots of the same propellant can generate different pressures. For example, the military data may show 50gr of IMR4895 as standard for a 150gr FMJ bullet, but 50gr of current production IMR4895 may be too much. Best to start at 46/47gr of commercial IMR4895 to produce safe and accurate loads which will cycle the rifle reliably. My proven loads with 150gr FMJ bullets after many rounds in many Garands use 47gr IMR4895 or 48gr IMR4064.
 
I won't be shooting it enough to get into reloading, so it sounds like after another thorough bore scrubbing the fix may be to go with the ported gas plug to vent the excess gas and keep shooting commercial ammo.
 
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