m14..input on a purchase
- Thread starter conflag
- Start date
I'm in the same boat. I'm looking to build a DMR-type rifle with the Sage M14ACLS ERB chassis. I know the Norinco's are great rifles for the price and they're dimensionally close to the M14, but, I simply refuse to buy anything Norinco. I was looking at the Springfield Armory M1A, it's over 2K and is of questionable build quality. SA is allegedly using reproduction, cast parts (some even made in Taiwan !!) and older USGI spares to assemble their rifles, which I find unacceptable for the price they're asking. I'm really torn. If I bought a SA, I will likely spend another $800 to upgrade it with USGI spares, on top of the Sage stock, rail mount (looking at the GDI for $375 USD), rings and scope (probably a Leupold Mark 4, another $1100 USD).
ovewhelmed is right
i did do some research but its always best to get it from the horses mouth so to speak..I hate internet info overload
So wher are we at..for $400 what other upgrades and retros do I need to do to a norc...im still a little uyneasy with the norinco..
i did do some research but its always best to get it from the horses mouth so to speak..I hate internet info overload
So wher are we at..for $400 what other upgrades and retros do I need to do to a norc...im still a little uyneasy with the norinco..
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well, the first advice is BUY IT! The boat is promised, but until the new shipments arrive, it is a seller's market. Then supply and demand will tip, but eventually there will be no more. Then prices will go up again.
To answer some questions above:
- Norinco or Springfield? - you get what you pay for. The Chinese rifles are good in almost all respects. So too are the Springfields, but at three or four times the price.
-If you want an all-USGI rifle, decide how long you want to eat Kraft Dinner, because it will be expensive. Personally, I prefer to have enough money left over after buying any gun to buy ammo. There are a number of USGI parts that will fit a Norinco. The only difference is the price of the receiver.
- Parts to make a Norinco better? A Marstar round operating spring rod and a set of gas cylinder shims (although the current batch are too small for some Norinco barrels) retail $52.98. After that a Garand backsight and a USGI fibreglass stock. You can shoot irons sights or get a scope mount, but you would have to do that to a SA as well.
- SAGE stocks are very heavy and have too many sharp edges for my tastes. Yes they have a purpose and a following, but I don't subscribe to that doctrine.
- Globalization is a fact with firearms. The Norinco rifles were made to encourage a revolution in the Phillipines. We have them in Canada because Chinese rifles are not welcome in the US. The SA receivers are cast in Montreal (yup, and SA keeps that really quiet). USGI parts are hard to export from the US.
To answer some questions above:
- Norinco or Springfield? - you get what you pay for. The Chinese rifles are good in almost all respects. So too are the Springfields, but at three or four times the price.
-If you want an all-USGI rifle, decide how long you want to eat Kraft Dinner, because it will be expensive. Personally, I prefer to have enough money left over after buying any gun to buy ammo. There are a number of USGI parts that will fit a Norinco. The only difference is the price of the receiver.
- Parts to make a Norinco better? A Marstar round operating spring rod and a set of gas cylinder shims (although the current batch are too small for some Norinco barrels) retail $52.98. After that a Garand backsight and a USGI fibreglass stock. You can shoot irons sights or get a scope mount, but you would have to do that to a SA as well.
- SAGE stocks are very heavy and have too many sharp edges for my tastes. Yes they have a purpose and a following, but I don't subscribe to that doctrine.
- Globalization is a fact with firearms. The Norinco rifles were made to encourage a revolution in the Phillipines. We have them in Canada because Chinese rifles are not welcome in the US. The SA receivers are cast in Montreal (yup, and SA keeps that really quiet). USGI parts are hard to export from the US.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Lifted from a US based M1/M14/M1A forum, posted by Ron H:
Most Norinco and USGI parts will interchange, with a few caveats. Things with metric threads usually won't interchange with the equivalent US part. Entire assemblies usually will interchange, even if their individual components won't.
GI/US commercial parts that typically "drop in" include:
* Flash suppressor
* Front sight
* GI barrel
* Gas cylinder assembly, less the gas cylinder lock
* Barrel band
* Handguard and clip
* Op rod
* Op rod guide and pin
* Op rod spring guide
* Magazine (both as an assembly and individual parts)
* Stock assembly (liner sometimes needs to be fit)
* Bolt parts, less bolt body
* Stripper clip guide and pin
* Trigger group (both as an assembly and individual components)
* Rear sight assembly
* Buttplate as an assembly
* All springs
GI/US commercial parts that must be fit:
* Commercial match barrel
* Connector lock
* Bolt body
* Bolt stop
Individual parts that do not interchange:
* Front sight screw
* Castle nut set screw
* Gas cylinder lock
* Gas cylinder lock screw
* Gas piston
* Connector lock
* Stock liner
* Stock liner screws
* Rear sight base
* Rear sight aperture
* Windage knob
* Elevation knob
* Rear sling swivel
* Lower buttplate screw
One oddball is the castle nut. The Chinese barrel threads are close enough that a USGI castle nut will go on and hold, but not the other way around.
Most Norinco and USGI parts will interchange, with a few caveats. Things with metric threads usually won't interchange with the equivalent US part. Entire assemblies usually will interchange, even if their individual components won't.
GI/US commercial parts that typically "drop in" include:
* Flash suppressor
* Front sight
* GI barrel
* Gas cylinder assembly, less the gas cylinder lock
* Barrel band
* Handguard and clip
* Op rod
* Op rod guide and pin
* Op rod spring guide
* Magazine (both as an assembly and individual parts)
* Stock assembly (liner sometimes needs to be fit)
* Bolt parts, less bolt body
* Stripper clip guide and pin
* Trigger group (both as an assembly and individual components)
* Rear sight assembly
* Buttplate as an assembly
* All springs
GI/US commercial parts that must be fit:
* Commercial match barrel
* Connector lock
* Bolt body
* Bolt stop
Individual parts that do not interchange:
* Front sight screw
* Castle nut set screw
* Gas cylinder lock
* Gas cylinder lock screw
* Gas piston
* Connector lock
* Stock liner
* Stock liner screws
* Rear sight base
* Rear sight aperture
* Windage knob
* Elevation knob
* Rear sling swivel
* Lower buttplate screw
One oddball is the castle nut. The Chinese barrel threads are close enough that a USGI castle nut will go on and hold, but not the other way around.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
As I understand, everyhing on an SA is USGI compatible. Springfield's problem seems to be substituting lessor quality parts now that the bulk supplies of cheap USGI parts are gone. Good for them to be victims of their own success, bad for them to undercut their reputation.
In my opinion, Springfield Armory is trading on its American-ness and not on its busi-ness. When the GIs come home from the sandboxes, I can bet a lot of them buy SA M1A rifles. But when NRA highpower shooters want to make High Master or go Distinguished, they're not using box standard SA M1A rifles. Nor are police sniper forces.
(editted for speeling)
In my opinion, Springfield Armory is trading on its American-ness and not on its busi-ness. When the GIs come home from the sandboxes, I can bet a lot of them buy SA M1A rifles. But when NRA highpower shooters want to make High Master or go Distinguished, they're not using box standard SA M1A rifles. Nor are police sniper forces.
(editted for speeling)
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"...refuse to buy anything Norinco..." Then you get to pay 2 grand or more for an M1A.
"...using reproduction..." Everything about the M1A is a reproduction. SA ran out of milsurp parts long ago. There's nothing wrong with cast parts though. Your engine block is a cast part.
Taiwanese parts are/were made on the original U.S. machinery. The same machines made the rifles used by the Taiwan military. I wouldn't be surprised if the rifles currently in use by the U.S. military have some of these parts in them.
In any case, U.S. made parts require the U.S. export permit. Even a screw if it's for an M14. Not so for M1A parts as it's a commercial copy.
"...using reproduction..." Everything about the M1A is a reproduction. SA ran out of milsurp parts long ago. There's nothing wrong with cast parts though. Your engine block is a cast part.
Taiwanese parts are/were made on the original U.S. machinery. The same machines made the rifles used by the Taiwan military. I wouldn't be surprised if the rifles currently in use by the U.S. military have some of these parts in them.
In any case, U.S. made parts require the U.S. export permit. Even a screw if it's for an M14. Not so for M1A parts as it's a commercial copy.
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
Buy the Norinco.
Very, very, few guys who do end up regretting it, and they can always sell them on the EE for a fair price and they usually go quick.
The only near new M14's that last more than a day on the EE are from guys trying to sell them for a hundred bucks more than they paid, after they already put a few boxes of ammo through it. If you're not trying to make a profit off a near new M14, the EE will basically work like a money back guarantee for you. And I seriously doubt you'd actually want to part with your M14 once you've handled it.
Very, very, few guys who do end up regretting it, and they can always sell them on the EE for a fair price and they usually go quick.
The only near new M14's that last more than a day on the EE are from guys trying to sell them for a hundred bucks more than they paid, after they already put a few boxes of ammo through it. If you're not trying to make a profit off a near new M14, the EE will basically work like a money back guarantee for you. And I seriously doubt you'd actually want to part with your M14 once you've handled it.
Consider the EE prices that you see. The rifle started at $399 list, plus $40 delivery, plus taxes, if you only have to pay GST, equals $465. If you are in ON, its going to total $486.78 with PST on the delivered rifle. Right now, there are't any available from the importer, so its a seller's market. Nice clean rifle at $500 isn't a bad deal at all. When the last of the parts sets have been assembled, and there aren't any more on the slow boats from China, $500 will be the good old days. IF the maker can be persuaded to put all the parts back into production, its not likely the rifles are going to be $399. Of course, brand new production would likely have bayonet lugs, no welded flashiders, or US importer's marks.
Okay, thanks for the tip. I'm still watching the EE forum. I would like a fibreglass GI stock.
Or you could stay at a Holiday Inn Express
