M60E
- Thread starter P0WERWAGON
- Start date
Scarecrow said:
wouldnt you need a 12(x) printed on the back of your PAL for that?
im assuming you mean fully automatic
Sorry about all the legal questions, still trying to figure whats legal and whats not. Its really a base by case thinng with the CFC
- Location
- Ontario defense force (ODF HQ)
DaveGP said:
I remember hearing this somewhere.
The lee Enfeild is the only bolt action that was heard by the enemy and mistaken for a machine gun
The M60 is the only Machine gun heard by the enemy and mistaken for a bolt action
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Good morning:
Here's the low down on belts and capacity:
a) Belts designed prior to 1945: no limit to the number of rounds that can be linked. Examples include the MG-34/42 50 rnd. belts, the 200 rnd. fabric belts for the 1919A4/A6, .303 Vickers belts, etc.
b) Belts Designed after WWII: strictly limited to no more than five rounds linked together. The assembled belt (if applicable: whether or not the belt disintegrates does not matter) is what governs maximum capacity. Examples include M60 links (or anything in 7.62x51mm NATO), M249/C9 links (or anything in 5.56x45mm NATO), etc.
Therefore if one purchases a semi-auto 1919A4/A6 in .30-06 200 round belts are perfectly all right. If the same gun is purchased in 7.62x51mm NATO only five rounds may be linked at a time. (Remember one can convert one 1919A4/A6 back and forth between the two calibres with the right parts).
That's the way the proverbial cookie bounces. Please do not ask me to explain the logic behind the legislation: I do not question our great nation's esteemed leaders ...
Hope this helps,
- Peter
Here's the low down on belts and capacity:
a) Belts designed prior to 1945: no limit to the number of rounds that can be linked. Examples include the MG-34/42 50 rnd. belts, the 200 rnd. fabric belts for the 1919A4/A6, .303 Vickers belts, etc.
b) Belts Designed after WWII: strictly limited to no more than five rounds linked together. The assembled belt (if applicable: whether or not the belt disintegrates does not matter) is what governs maximum capacity. Examples include M60 links (or anything in 7.62x51mm NATO), M249/C9 links (or anything in 5.56x45mm NATO), etc.
Therefore if one purchases a semi-auto 1919A4/A6 in .30-06 200 round belts are perfectly all right. If the same gun is purchased in 7.62x51mm NATO only five rounds may be linked at a time. (Remember one can convert one 1919A4/A6 back and forth between the two calibres with the right parts).
That's the way the proverbial cookie bounces. Please do not ask me to explain the logic behind the legislation: I do not question our great nation's esteemed leaders ...
Hope this helps,
- Peter
OneBarfly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Just to play devil's advocate: I don't see the problem of using over 5 rds of .308 ammo in a 1919A4/A6 provided that the belt or link was of a type designed prior to 1945. So, if you loaded belts or links with .308 that were originally designed for 30.06 AND designed prior to 1945 would there be a problem? It seems to me that its the belts and not the calibre that's being regulated.
Peter said:
There are a few semi auto manufactured M60's floating around North America. I shot and nearly purchased one in Manitoba about 10 years ago. It was configured as an M60E3 and was (and remains) nonrestricted. It ws not a C/A, it was a factory semi. It sold long ago sold for ~10K so please don't ask if it's still for sale. It went to a nice home in PQ.
MasterGunner
Member
- Location
- Machesney Park, IL USA
The operation of the M60 and M1919-series guns is completely different. The M60 machine gun uses the M13 strip-through desintegrating link. This link is open at the bottom with a tab that snaps into the extracting groove on the base of the case. As the bolt moves forward in the feed cycle, the locking lug of the bolt strips a round of the link by pushing it foward to chamber it. A belt made of M13 links is a fully desintegrating belt. That is, when a round is stripped from the link, the link falls off.
The Browning guns, whether .30, 7.62 NATO, or .50, all use a pull out link such as the M2 in .30 caliber and .50 caliber guns. Alternatively, they can use a 250 [.30 or 7.62] or 105 [.50] round fabric belt. The steel M2 link is has two loops that grasp the neck of the case and its body; there is a single loop for the next round in the belt. In operation, the extractor is snapped over the extracting groove of the cound when it is flush against the cartridge stops and the cover is closed. When the cocking handle is moved to the rear, the extractor pulls the round from the belt and puts it in the T-slot of the bolt.
The feed lever stud moves in the track in the top of the rear-moving bolt. The feed lever moves the feed pawl to move a new round into position. As the bolt moves back, the extractor cam moves the extractor down to position the round in the T-slot of the bolt to align with the barrel chamber.
As the bolt moves forward, the feed lever moves to the left to pickup a new round. When the extractor hits the extractor cam, it is moved up until it snaps over the end of the next round to feed at the same time the first round is chambered. A belt made of M2 links is a fully desintegrating belt. When a round is pulled from the link, the link falls off. Alternatively, the cloth belt remains intact and merely piles up next to the right side of the gun.
The MG42 and MG34 use a strip out link that is a SECTIONALLY desintegrating type. There is a starter tab that is connected to the first round of the 50-round belt section. The 51th round locks another 50-round section of belt together to the first, and so on.
With the rebirth of the German Bundeswehr in 1949, the Germans redesigned wartime MG42 guns to use 7.62 NATO caliber. The modified guns, called MG42/59 used the DM-1 sectionally desintegrating link. Later guns called the MG3 were further modified use the U.S. M13 fully desintegrating links as well as the DM-1.
If the ban applies to post 1945 links and belts ccording to caliber, then 7.62 NATO is a disqualifier even though the Israelis made both steel desintegrating links and cloth belts for their 7.62 NATO conversions of the Browning machine gun. The U.S. Navy 7.62 NATO Mk 21 Mod 0 conversions of the .30 BMG used the M13 link of the M60 except that it was fed upside down (open side of the link is up). This makes the M13 link into a pull-out type link. Israeli 7.62 NATO BMG steel links or cloth belts will NOT work in an M60 GPMG (general purpose machine gun).
The Browning guns, whether .30, 7.62 NATO, or .50, all use a pull out link such as the M2 in .30 caliber and .50 caliber guns. Alternatively, they can use a 250 [.30 or 7.62] or 105 [.50] round fabric belt. The steel M2 link is has two loops that grasp the neck of the case and its body; there is a single loop for the next round in the belt. In operation, the extractor is snapped over the extracting groove of the cound when it is flush against the cartridge stops and the cover is closed. When the cocking handle is moved to the rear, the extractor pulls the round from the belt and puts it in the T-slot of the bolt.
The feed lever stud moves in the track in the top of the rear-moving bolt. The feed lever moves the feed pawl to move a new round into position. As the bolt moves back, the extractor cam moves the extractor down to position the round in the T-slot of the bolt to align with the barrel chamber.
As the bolt moves forward, the feed lever moves to the left to pickup a new round. When the extractor hits the extractor cam, it is moved up until it snaps over the end of the next round to feed at the same time the first round is chambered. A belt made of M2 links is a fully desintegrating belt. When a round is pulled from the link, the link falls off. Alternatively, the cloth belt remains intact and merely piles up next to the right side of the gun.
The MG42 and MG34 use a strip out link that is a SECTIONALLY desintegrating type. There is a starter tab that is connected to the first round of the 50-round belt section. The 51th round locks another 50-round section of belt together to the first, and so on.
With the rebirth of the German Bundeswehr in 1949, the Germans redesigned wartime MG42 guns to use 7.62 NATO caliber. The modified guns, called MG42/59 used the DM-1 sectionally desintegrating link. Later guns called the MG3 were further modified use the U.S. M13 fully desintegrating links as well as the DM-1.
If the ban applies to post 1945 links and belts ccording to caliber, then 7.62 NATO is a disqualifier even though the Israelis made both steel desintegrating links and cloth belts for their 7.62 NATO conversions of the Browning machine gun. The U.S. Navy 7.62 NATO Mk 21 Mod 0 conversions of the .30 BMG used the M13 link of the M60 except that it was fed upside down (open side of the link is up). This makes the M13 link into a pull-out type link. Israeli 7.62 NATO BMG steel links or cloth belts will NOT work in an M60 GPMG (general purpose machine gun).
Heres my assho.....opinion
its not calibre or type of belt
Its design of gun. If the GUN was originally designed prior 1945 you can stuff any belt of any type in any calibre into it and go ape####
A MarStar 1919 was ORIGINALLY designed in...well....1919 obviously. There fore you can fire cloth belt...old disintegrating link..... or new NATO disintegrating link in it and be OK
Or...there are a lot of people out there illegally firing theyre 1919s and dont even know it(that would be a first in Canuck gun laws)
its not calibre or type of belt
Its design of gun. If the GUN was originally designed prior 1945 you can stuff any belt of any type in any calibre into it and go ape####
A MarStar 1919 was ORIGINALLY designed in...well....1919 obviously. There fore you can fire cloth belt...old disintegrating link..... or new NATO disintegrating link in it and be OK
Or...there are a lot of people out there illegally firing theyre 1919s and dont even know it(that would be a first in Canuck gun laws)
stencollector
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- shilo MB, the armpit of Canada
I think the cartridge exemption reads the words "of a type in producton prior to 1945". The re-design and production of the 1919 into .308 caliber was post war. What would a court decide if it went that far? How much would it cost you to find out?
I was ready to convert my TNW 1919 to C5A1 configuration (in semi auto of course) to accept the NATO links, but decided against it because I don't wish to find out whether the 5 round capacity regulation will apply to that modification of the 1919.
I do agree with the interpretaion that it's not the build date of the belt, but rather whether the gun it was intended for was in production prior to 45. I use 50s dated Dominion Arsenal C/l\ marked belts with my 1919.
The wording of the cartridge exemptions make it pretty clear that whoever wrote the law considers a belt as a "magazine type" If thats the NFAs interpretaion of the magazine capacity law, I hope they'll stand behind you when you go to court.
echo4lima said:
I do believe there was a video of an E firing something like 5-8000 rounds in one squeeze with no stoppages.I believe they did redesign it to fire from a closed bolt,but I could be wrong.I'll see if I can find more info.
MasterGunner
Member
- Location
- Machesney Park, IL USA
What you need to do is get the M60 to use the 50-round sectional disintegrating belts of the MG42 or MG42/59. The Browning belts will not work because they are pullout links; the M60 (and MG42 series) use stripthrough links. German MG42/59 and MG3 guns can use both the sectional disintegrating belts (such as the German DM1) and the individually disintegrating types (like the American M13).
