M8Z ball .303
- Thread starter rtracer13
- Start date
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
i hope your not planning on shooting mk 8 ball out of a lee enfield or even shooting it at all its worth more the way it is and its also loaded to a higher pressure then mk 7 ball as it was made for MG's
Issued rounds with the Canadian rangers so yep they will be shot from my issued no4 Mk 1. Just playing around with a ballistic calculator to see trajectory.
What?
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
i would not do it it will cause wear on the gun
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
so you say but it has made guns fail in the past because its loaded hotter then the standard mk7 ball mk 8 was only to be used in MG's(vickers,brownings and brens)
and yes it is worth a bit as there is next to no surplus it should not be shot if its british ammo over 75% of it will not go bang or have a hangfire anyway
antiqueguy - the fresh, current production ammunition currently issued to Canadian rangers for use in their No. 4 rifles is headstamped Mk8Z.
This is the ammunition that the OP is asking about. It would seem that you have never seen or used this ammunition.
This is the ammunition that the OP is asking about. It would seem that you have never seen or used this ammunition.
When the military gave the specs to IVI for new production ball ammo for the #4 they made a mistake and said the Mk8 bullet was the last bullet used for ball ammo.
This bullet is a boattail and does not work as well as the flatbase that was intended to be shot in the #4. A well-used #4 would do much better with the flatbase.
When I first saw the new ammo I was immediately concerned a more serious mistake was made, but testing verified that the pressure were correct for the rifle.
The boattail ammo works ok in new barrels.
This bullet is a boattail and does not work as well as the flatbase that was intended to be shot in the #4. A well-used #4 would do much better with the flatbase.
When I first saw the new ammo I was immediately concerned a more serious mistake was made, but testing verified that the pressure were correct for the rifle.
The boattail ammo works ok in new barrels.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
well then they should rename it as it shares a name with a MG round
mk8 ball was produced in the Z format too witch is smokeless and if its for the canadian rangers how would a normal every day person get there hands on it
The only problem with using original Mk.VIII ammunition in rifles is that the sight calibrations will be off. Brit. spec. Mk.VIII ammunition is not higher pressure than Mk.VII ammunition. With the exception of sighting, it works just fine in rifles. It does use the streamlined bullet, which gives a much longer effective range than the flat based Mk.VII bullet; this was important when used in the Vickers gun.
There are differences in bore erosion, NC vs Cordite, and boat tailed vs flat based bullets.
This was particularly important when a Vickers was used for overhead fire.
There are differences in bore erosion, NC vs Cordite, and boat tailed vs flat based bullets.
This was particularly important when a Vickers was used for overhead fire.
"shares a name with a MG round mk8 ball was produced in the Z format too witch is smokeless"
Antiqueguy, I think you're missing the point.....Mk8(or VIII)Z ammo is not JUST for MGs, and all the Mk8Z ammo was loaded with smokeless nitro-cellulose powder. Nobody made a mistake, and it is not dangerous to shoot in rifles chambered in .303.
Antiqueguy, I think you're missing the point.....Mk8(or VIII)Z ammo is not JUST for MGs, and all the Mk8Z ammo was loaded with smokeless nitro-cellulose powder. Nobody made a mistake, and it is not dangerous to shoot in rifles chambered in .303.
Yep and I have it as it was issued to me for training as a member of the Canadian Rangers. Anyone know the bc? I'd assume it's not a dnd secret, as there is tons of other info on the round commonly available, but cant find it..if it is undisclosed that'd be good to know to.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
well if i had a scanner i could show you the training manual that says different(there was a bit in the manual that said not to use mk VIII ball in the lee enfield as it will cause more wear for the higher pressure)
but heres a quote. In 1938 the Mark VIII round was approved to obtain greater range from the Vickers machine gun. The primary change was the addition of a boat-tail and slightly more propellant, giving a muzzle velocity of 2550 ft/s (780 m/s) and somewhat better ballistics. Chamber pressure was higher, at 40,000–42,000 lbf/in² (about 280 MPa), making it suitable for firing only from the machine gun
A degree or two of confusion here.
Mark VIIz is simply a Mark VII round loaded with nitro-cellulose propellant instead of cordite (the "z" suffix indicates NC on all British ammunition). Introduced in 1917 using American DuPont No.16, Mark VIIz was made intermitently right through the life of the .303, the last being made by ROF Radway Green in 1973.
Mark VIIIz was introduced for Vickers guns in 1938 to give better ballistics for long range barrage fire. It has a 175 grain boat-tailed bullet and is loaded to slightly higher velocity (2,550 fps nstead of 2,450) and pressure (20-21 tons instead of 19.5) than the Mark VII. Due to the different erosion properties the two should not be mixed in machine guns, but it is not a concern in rifles. It also has a more pointed profile than Mark VII. The official line was that Mark VIIIz could be used in rifles in an emergency or when a lower flash was desirable, e.g. night patrols. There is no problem with pressure because both rifles and machine guns were proofed to the same pressure of 25 tons.
I am not sure which manual antiquesguy is quoting, but Pamphlet 11, Small Arms Ammunition, (my editions dated 24 Feb. 1945 and 1 April 1949) states:
"(c) Light Machine Guns*
Mk.8z being Neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk.8z in order to lessen the flash.
(d) Rifles*
Mk.8z S.A.A. will not be used in rifles except as in the case of Bren guns (see (c) above), if the necessity should arise.
*Although the use of Mk.7 and kindred types of cordite loaded, flat base, bulleted ammunition reduces Mk.8z barrel life, the reverse is not the case. No deletrious effect will therefore be produced by the occasional and restricted use of Mk.8z ammunition in these weapons for the purposes indicated above."
Some snipers may have preferred it, but it was not regular issue for snipers.
Regards
TonyE
Mark VIIz is simply a Mark VII round loaded with nitro-cellulose propellant instead of cordite (the "z" suffix indicates NC on all British ammunition). Introduced in 1917 using American DuPont No.16, Mark VIIz was made intermitently right through the life of the .303, the last being made by ROF Radway Green in 1973.
Mark VIIIz was introduced for Vickers guns in 1938 to give better ballistics for long range barrage fire. It has a 175 grain boat-tailed bullet and is loaded to slightly higher velocity (2,550 fps nstead of 2,450) and pressure (20-21 tons instead of 19.5) than the Mark VII. Due to the different erosion properties the two should not be mixed in machine guns, but it is not a concern in rifles. It also has a more pointed profile than Mark VII. The official line was that Mark VIIIz could be used in rifles in an emergency or when a lower flash was desirable, e.g. night patrols. There is no problem with pressure because both rifles and machine guns were proofed to the same pressure of 25 tons.
I am not sure which manual antiquesguy is quoting, but Pamphlet 11, Small Arms Ammunition, (my editions dated 24 Feb. 1945 and 1 April 1949) states:
"(c) Light Machine Guns*
Mk.8z being Neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk.8z in order to lessen the flash.
(d) Rifles*
Mk.8z S.A.A. will not be used in rifles except as in the case of Bren guns (see (c) above), if the necessity should arise.
*Although the use of Mk.7 and kindred types of cordite loaded, flat base, bulleted ammunition reduces Mk.8z barrel life, the reverse is not the case. No deletrious effect will therefore be produced by the occasional and restricted use of Mk.8z ammunition in these weapons for the purposes indicated above."
Some snipers may have preferred it, but it was not regular issue for snipers.
Regards
TonyE
Last edited:
C-74-305-DCO/TA-000 Dated 1988-02-11
Cartridge, Calibre 0.303 inch Ball, Mk8 Cdn and Mk8Z Cdn
Bullet
Para 11. The bullet is 1.30 inches (33mm) long and weighs 175 grains (11 grams). The bullet is boat tailed and consists of a 98/2 lead antimony core covered with a gilding metal jacket.........
Propellant
Para 12. The propellant used in the Mk8 cartridge is a double based commercial powder CF7500; in the Mk8Z the single base C1(CMR 100) propellant is used. The normal charge weight for the double base is 36 gains and for the single base is 38.5 grains.
Hope this helps, this is the ammunition currently being produced for the Canadian Rangers Lee Enfields use since the late '80's. It has been manufactured by both IVI & Winchester. From personal experience it is not suitable for use in fully automatic weapons because it is only required to pass a Bullet Extraction test of not less than 256 newtons (not enough crimp to the lay person). I issued the last of the WW2 surplus to the Rangers about 1989, this is what is currently issed.
Cartridge, Calibre 0.303 inch Ball, Mk8 Cdn and Mk8Z Cdn
Bullet
Para 11. The bullet is 1.30 inches (33mm) long and weighs 175 grains (11 grams). The bullet is boat tailed and consists of a 98/2 lead antimony core covered with a gilding metal jacket.........
Propellant
Para 12. The propellant used in the Mk8 cartridge is a double based commercial powder CF7500; in the Mk8Z the single base C1(CMR 100) propellant is used. The normal charge weight for the double base is 36 gains and for the single base is 38.5 grains.
Hope this helps, this is the ammunition currently being produced for the Canadian Rangers Lee Enfields use since the late '80's. It has been manufactured by both IVI & Winchester. From personal experience it is not suitable for use in fully automatic weapons because it is only required to pass a Bullet Extraction test of not less than 256 newtons (not enough crimp to the lay person). I issued the last of the WW2 surplus to the Rangers about 1989, this is what is currently issed.
You can't, legally.
