I understand its not really smithing question. Can't find anything worth reading on the subject. What kind of laminate and glue should I be using? How critical is it to have vacuum bagging set up, can I just press things together? Never done thins before.
making laminated stock from scratch
- Thread starter 22lr
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Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You dont need a vacuum setup, as the stocks are carved just like any piece of lumber. You can buy pre-laminated blanks, but they are hard to come buy and lots of money. You can make a decent poor man's laminate by buying sheets of 3/4" baltic birch (or russian birch) plywood and gluing them together with Titebond III and lots of clamps, then carve/shape/inlet.
Cheers,
Ryan
Cheers,
Ryan
your glue needs to be a variety that will not be affected by moisture but yet will let your finish adhere to the wood.
another option is to take 2 different kinds of wood like maple and walnut cut into strips, thickness sand them on both top and bottom for consistency, lay up in opposite directions of grain, glue and clamp then inlet and sand.
you can pick up a pure blank in laminate from the USA but the shipping cost will nearly double the cost of the blank.
another option is to take 2 different kinds of wood like maple and walnut cut into strips, thickness sand them on both top and bottom for consistency, lay up in opposite directions of grain, glue and clamp then inlet and sand.
you can pick up a pure blank in laminate from the USA but the shipping cost will nearly double the cost of the blank.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Don't use epoxy for laminations.....three reasons:
1. Not enough viscocity. Epoxy contains a high amount of solids, you won't get as tight as you will with PVA glues. PVA's soak "into" the wood cells when it bonds, epoxies sit on top (except for some specialty formulations, but they are not common, and difficult to use)
2. It's "too" rigid. As the wood moves even .05%. the epoxy will fragment due to the micro-thin layers.
3. Finishing: It's a nightmare to try and apply a film-forming finish over epoxy glue lines....unless you are doing an epoxy finish, but that's beyond the ability of most DIY'ers.
Titebond III (Type 3 PVA) is a far superior choice for laminations. It is highly moisture resistant, maintains about 2% flex, has a bond shear strength 6X higher than hard maple, and sands/accepts finish readily.
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I made a stock using Baltic plywood. Cut the layers to generate rough inletting, to reduce the amount of inletting that had to be done from solid. You can use different thicknesses to your advantage. Bedded with Accraglas Gel. Made an attractive, useful stock.
i bought two big slabs of hard wood in opposing colours... light /dark... i think it was yew and blackwalnut. had the 3 inch x 18in x 3ft slabs cut to make 5/16 thick sheets of 18inx3ft i then got my friend to run it through a planer to bring it to a finished thickness of 3/16. Made a beautiful thumbhole laminate stock for a win mod 70 7mm mag .... sold it a few years back for huge $$$$
all in all it was a tedious project, i recommend titebond as well and we used a clamping jig with over a dozen big C clamps to tighten it up as tight as we could.
I'm currently working on a high coomed monte carlo style stock for one of my enfield no1mIII hunting rifles in solid black walnut, was gonna go laminate.... but.... not this time
all in all it was a tedious project, i recommend titebond as well and we used a clamping jig with over a dozen big C clamps to tighten it up as tight as we could.
I'm currently working on a high coomed monte carlo style stock for one of my enfield no1mIII hunting rifles in solid black walnut, was gonna go laminate.... but.... not this time
Laminated stocks are not "plywood", in the sense of a 0,90 orientation for stability, like you find at home depot, or even an aviation supplier. They are a glue lam beam type material with all the laminations in the 0 axis. You can still achieve some stability by mixing grain orientation in the flitches of veneer. And the laminations make it much harder for moisture to migrate,
Epoxy is far and away the best option for just about anything structural, unless it is going to face fire. NASA used to buy wood epoxy composite windmill vanes from the Gougeon brothers, because it was the best bang for the buck until Graphite got into major production, and they still use the epoxy. Any brand of boat building epoxy, which is widely available, like west system, system 3, etc... Will not have any of the problems mentioned above. Bows are made with epoxy and the type used IS quite viscous which can mean visible glue lines. But boat building epoxies disappear in the glueline unless thickened, etc...
Vac bagging is always an advantage, but you need a fair amount of force to compress veneers, so you need a vane pump or better. Overall the laminations compress well, but a little squiggle in the grain can prove hard to compress, birdseye for instance.
A rifle stock is not so large that you couldn't either use something impressively heavy, or a lot of clamps. The idea isn't to get a lot of pressure, but an even degree of it that compresses all the gluelines. Weight is cool because it is self compensating. With clamps, tighten them firmly, then come back in a few minutes and snug them down again. Wrap in plastic to catch the glue, and use cauls top and bottom to evenly spread the pressure.
Titebond would be low on my list, but it is popular because it is available and cheap. If you have to spread a lot of veneers, be sure to use something like a roller, or notched trowel, get the glue on all surfaces fast, and keep them touching as soon as you can, or the glue can skin over. Epoxy isn't affected by the air, but you need enough cure time to get it done. Some epoxy hardeners give you half a day, but then they take longer to harden off.
Better glues than the polyurethanes, or Titebond, but not epoxies, are Weldwood plastic resin cement, and resorcinol. Of the two weldwood is easier to use, find, and glues without a dark line.
Epoxy is far and away the best option for just about anything structural, unless it is going to face fire. NASA used to buy wood epoxy composite windmill vanes from the Gougeon brothers, because it was the best bang for the buck until Graphite got into major production, and they still use the epoxy. Any brand of boat building epoxy, which is widely available, like west system, system 3, etc... Will not have any of the problems mentioned above. Bows are made with epoxy and the type used IS quite viscous which can mean visible glue lines. But boat building epoxies disappear in the glueline unless thickened, etc...
Vac bagging is always an advantage, but you need a fair amount of force to compress veneers, so you need a vane pump or better. Overall the laminations compress well, but a little squiggle in the grain can prove hard to compress, birdseye for instance.
A rifle stock is not so large that you couldn't either use something impressively heavy, or a lot of clamps. The idea isn't to get a lot of pressure, but an even degree of it that compresses all the gluelines. Weight is cool because it is self compensating. With clamps, tighten them firmly, then come back in a few minutes and snug them down again. Wrap in plastic to catch the glue, and use cauls top and bottom to evenly spread the pressure.
Titebond would be low on my list, but it is popular because it is available and cheap. If you have to spread a lot of veneers, be sure to use something like a roller, or notched trowel, get the glue on all surfaces fast, and keep them touching as soon as you can, or the glue can skin over. Epoxy isn't affected by the air, but you need enough cure time to get it done. Some epoxy hardeners give you half a day, but then they take longer to harden off.
Better glues than the polyurethanes, or Titebond, but not epoxies, are Weldwood plastic resin cement, and resorcinol. Of the two weldwood is easier to use, find, and glues without a dark line.
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Back in 1968-69 a couple of friends made some stocks out of 3 pieces of walnut... the center piece was straight grained walnut between two pieces of figured walnut using good wood workers glue and lots of clamps. The stocks ended up looking pretty good and as far as I know held together just fine.
Mystic Precision
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I have used both epoxy and carpenters glue (yellow aliphatic stuff similar to titebond, et al). Both work well.
The epoxy used is called laminating resin and is formulated for just that. Very thin, soaks in very well and once cured will never fail. Best part is that it is waterproof.
Glues like titebond, carpenters/aliphatic glues will degrade if immersed in water. Only matters if you plan on getting the stock very wet. For a range stock, no issue at all. This glue is also WAY cheaper to buy and find.
I use 'C' grade plywood found at any lumber yard. A stock is narrow enough that you can work around the voids. This stuff is dirt cheap and you might even get them free if you know someone in the construction business. Scraps to them are plenty big for our uses.
Gluing together some 3/4" ply to make a 1/5" to 2" thick blank will be stronger then just about anything used in stock making today - even composites.
Because of this, I hollow out the slabs to reduce weight as much as possible or conversely, to create opening for ballast. Do cut/profile each layer as much as possible to reduce inletting work later on.
Epoxy is compatible with all auto finish components. That cannot be said for some water based glues.
I will fill, seal then paint so any small blemishes dissappear in the final stages. If going for a natural finish, better off with the baltic/cabinet grades of plywood as construction plywood is ugly in its natural state.
It is huge work so decide if this is for fun vs saving money. There are lots of semi inletted stocks offered or you can modify a factory stock. Both methods are huge time savers.
There is a post in the precision forum posted by juan valdez. You can see how he is transforming a factory tuperwear stock into a very nice BR stock.
Jerry
The epoxy used is called laminating resin and is formulated for just that. Very thin, soaks in very well and once cured will never fail. Best part is that it is waterproof.
Glues like titebond, carpenters/aliphatic glues will degrade if immersed in water. Only matters if you plan on getting the stock very wet. For a range stock, no issue at all. This glue is also WAY cheaper to buy and find.
I use 'C' grade plywood found at any lumber yard. A stock is narrow enough that you can work around the voids. This stuff is dirt cheap and you might even get them free if you know someone in the construction business. Scraps to them are plenty big for our uses.
Gluing together some 3/4" ply to make a 1/5" to 2" thick blank will be stronger then just about anything used in stock making today - even composites.
Because of this, I hollow out the slabs to reduce weight as much as possible or conversely, to create opening for ballast. Do cut/profile each layer as much as possible to reduce inletting work later on.
Epoxy is compatible with all auto finish components. That cannot be said for some water based glues.
I will fill, seal then paint so any small blemishes dissappear in the final stages. If going for a natural finish, better off with the baltic/cabinet grades of plywood as construction plywood is ugly in its natural state.
It is huge work so decide if this is for fun vs saving money. There are lots of semi inletted stocks offered or you can modify a factory stock. Both methods are huge time savers.
There is a post in the precision forum posted by juan valdez. You can see how he is transforming a factory tuperwear stock into a very nice BR stock.
Jerry
thans for replies everybody. This project is more necessity than fun - I will be "re-stocking" my jungle carbine and I want pistol grip and adjustable cheeck pice and springed butt pice. No one makes blanks of this kind. So, I am stuck with plywood then, right? I really hoped there is some store with all laminating supplies. I checked Home Depot today but couldn't find any "real thin boards". Well, plywood it is...
google "richards micro stocks" thier website used to show very detailed pics of thier process... and thier stocks are availlable in wide range of laminate and solid blanks. I purchased a semi finished richards wildcat thumbhole stock several years ago for a .308 bolt gun and it was one hell of a stock... a true thing of beauty..... shoulda never sold that rifle
