Manton Double Barrel

davie crockett

davie crockett

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Location
Prince Edward Island
I just bought a Manton 12ga double barrel, cut to a coach gun. Was told this little sweetheart is circa 1880 to who knows?
On top of barrels above chambers is marked " Laminated Steel", is that anything associated with " Damascus" process?
On hammer plated is marked also " machine made", I take a little industrial technology was used there in the recipe!
Last owner had it 10years & never shot it but last two owners shot it but used cheap skeet loads, any thoughts on this Manton?
 
The English gunmakers John and Joseph ( separate businesses) Manton made some of the finest guns of the era 1805 to 1855, bridging the flintlock various pellet and tube lock stepping stones and finally percussion lock guns. They set the standard that all other quality makers strived towards. They were succeeded into the pinfire and more modern centrefire eras by several family businesses bearing the Manton name, including Manton and Company which was run by a nephew and based in India, importing guns from Britain. If It’s an English made gun it will have British proof marks and will have been a quality gun when made.
Along come the Belgians. Starting before 1900 there was a very large and lucrative trade in cheap ‘trade’ guns to primitive countries and inexpensive ‘hardware store’ guns to developing countries in south and north American like Canada. These ‘hardware store’ guns were usually marked with a hardware company name, a fanciful name or increasingly the names of defunct famous British makers and then mis spellings of some existing British and American makers, thereby avoiding legal copyright action. These guns were sold by the truckload to newly arrived pioneers who usually arrived from Europe with little but the shirts on their backs. This continued, especially in western Canada through the ‘teens, 1920’s, 30’s and up to WW2, about 1940 and the country is still flooded with them. They were very crudely made with poor material, poor heat treating, poor fitting and sloppy assembly but they were affordable and filled wagonloads of waterfowl and prairie chickens for many years. Most quickly shot loose because of shoddy manufacture, massive loads and heavy use. Their value today, if still safe to use ranges from $150 to maybe $300 for the best. They have no real collector value and almost as little as a shooter, mostly a curiosity or for display. Common faux names on these guns are Manton, J Manton, Manton and Company, W moore, William Moore, W Richards and mis spellings of Purdy, Greener, Parker and others. They are commonly referred to as “JABC”, Just Another Belgian Clunker. If it bears London or Birmingham proof marks it was once a nice gun before someone destroyed the value by chopping the barrels. If it has Belgian proof marks, the cut barrels make no difference to the minimal value.
 
Last edited:
davie crockett said:
I just bought a Manton 12ga double barrel, cut to a coach gun. Was told this little sweetheart is circa 1880 to who knows?
On top of barrels above chambers is marked " Laminated Steel", is that anything associated with " Damascus" process?
On hammer plated is marked also " machine made", I take a little industrial technology was used there in the recipe!
Last owner had it 10years & never shot it but last two owners shot it but used cheap skeet loads, any thoughts on this Manton?
Click to expand...
If the locks are marked "machine made", I would put money on the proof marks being Belgian NOT English, but I have been wrong before..

Cat
 
If it's an English gunmaker the proofmark should be crossed scetpers or halberds. Letters INM in the centre, which may not be readable with age. (these letters)
But this symbol is topped by a crown, which is usually visible/legible.
 
Hello, sounds like a fun find. The advice to check the proofs under the barrels is good as it speaks to quality. If they are there you'll learn a lot. Then get it checked by a smith, especially to confirm the barrel weld is still good (remove barrels, hang the barrels upside down, and see if it rings like a bell if struck by a soft mallet). Check that the barrels are on face with the receiver, ie. no space bigger than a sheet of paper between barrel/receiver, no wobble side to side. Check wall thickness of barrels, and look for bumps or raised areas which indicates corrosion within the layers of laminated steel/iron. You should only fire light loads, low pressure BP loads. I would consider firing it from a safe place the first time to Proof it, at least to yourself, and then always inspect it for issues. It is old, may not be completely done, great piece of history to investigate further.
 
Gary V said:
especially to confirm the barrel weld is still good (remove barrels, hang the barrels upside down, and see if it rings like a bell if struck by a soft mallet)
Click to expand...

most or all of the belgian doubles I have seen, have had the barrel ribs brazed in place and are very unlikely to be separated. While I also strongly suspect your gun is belgian, the Manton and company cartridge guns of the 1870s and later were often economy grade guns

cheers mooncoon
 
All due respect to everyone here, we should keep this in context. Even economy guns of yesteryear were hand made firearms produced by very experienced trade people. I thought I read somewhere something like 32 differing workers (of seperate trades/tasks) were involved in building sxs shotguns.
I have an economy gun English build, a Parkhurst ten gauge in full and full choke. It came from Utah and boy I wish it could speak of its past.
 
Last edited:
Belgian "hardware store" guns may be hand-made, but more like hacked out. They were made cheaply, to be sold cheaply. Their lack of fine fit and their rough finishing gives them away every time.
The mail-order catalogues of the late 1800s and early 1900s are full of cheap guns, dressed up by upscale description and names.
The British "Manton" guns are a vastly different product.
Using a famous name to market an inferior product has been a going on for centuries.
 
saskbooknut said:
Belgian "hardware store" guns may be hand-made, but more like hacked out. They were made cheaply, to be sold cheaply. Their lack of fine fit and their rough finishing gives them away every time.
.
Click to expand...

there is nothing wrong with Belgian barrels in my opinion and the wood to metal fit of almost all of the Belgian guns I have seen, has been fairly good or good. Their shortcomings have been the quality of the locks on the inside and many of the locks have been badly worn because the case hardening of the parts has worn through from heavy use

The crown over the ELG means the gun was made after 1893

cheers mooncoon
 
One of our club members collects SxS hammer guns - he's down to around 100 or so, having disposed of most of them over the last couple of years. Probably 90% of them are well-made Belgian guns and he has shot them all in competitions over the last fifty years.
 
It’s not that these old Belgian made hardware store guns were bad or unsafe, they were just fine for their purpose when new. They were made as inexpensively as possible to meet a demand for a cheap simple gun for hard use. They were made no better than the bare minimum quality to actually work and to be proofed as safe to use. Reliability, long service, brand reputation were never considerations. Farmers, immigrants, settlers just wanted something that went bang when they pulled the trigger and above all it needed to be cheap. These guns filled that demand. For those with deeper pockets there were numerous American and English guns available which were much more carefully made, more robust and designed and made to a high standard to provide good service indefinitely. But these guns, even the plainest models, would cost 5 or 10 times as much and were not competitive in this market. Yes these old Belgian ‘clunkers’ were basic, simple and crude compared to a contemporary Parker, L C Smith, Webley and Scott or Greener, but they did the job and the fact that hundreds, maybe thousands of them survive. ( although many are now worn out and unsafe to shoot) is evidence that they were good enough for what was required of them.
 
The Belgian gunmakers were capable of a high standard of work. We do see the occasional high grade Belgian gun in Canada.
Their Damascus tube making took over the world market, partly due to low Belgian wages.
The highest grade of Belgian Damascus barrels are seen on many "Best" guns.
Unfortunately, the subject gun with "laminated steel" barrels is not of that quality.
 
It wasn't a hammer gun, but a few years ago online I seen a Francotte(?) between wars hammerless sxs in smokeless 10 gauge. It caught my eye because it was rare to discover any SxS ten in a weight just over eight pounds. I wish I had money at the time.
The weld was small, the metal thickness or I should say lack thereof was something to be seen at the muzzle.
I have never seen another one like it before or since.
 
Some years ago, I encountered a generic Belgian hammer gun, front action locks, in about 95% condition. It was attractively finished, and mechanically sound. I was tempted to buy it because you just don't see them in this condition.
 
My Neumann Bros 12ga Hammer gun is one of the better ones, steel barrels, "Buick quality", being a well finished bar lock sxs.
A bit heavy, but great for sporting clays, use my low pressure reloads, and the odd black power shell (at random) for the entertainment.
Love to find a 20 in the same quality level. It would go well with the 12 and my Neumann 410.
Yes, the Belgies could and did make all levels..
 
I remember a sidelock Neumann which had rock crystal windows in the lockplates instead of cocking indicators. A serious quality gun.
Generally speaking, I think that Belgian guns with the name of the actual maker are likely going to be better quality than ones with spurious names or no names at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom