"Manton" English Precusion Rifle *PICS ARE UP*

rideauwrangler

rideauwrangler

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I'm looking for any input from the experts & collectors. My friend brought me an antique BP rifle last night which was 1 of 2 he got for $20. The guy he got them from claimed to have inherited them from his grandfather who supposedly recevied them from a decendant of Joseph Manton (load of #### I expect). It almost brought a tear to my eye because this thing could not be in worse shape! All the metal is heavily pitted & coroded, the butt stock is broken completely in half and the whole gun has a thick layer of cob-webs over it. I will post some pics of it tomorrow but I thought I'd get a jump start from anyone who could point me in the right direction.

I imagine this gun has no monetary value at all due to it's horendous condition but I can't help think about who might have been carrying this thing well over 100 years ago perhaps even 200 years. To start things off; I could only find 2 marks, the name Manton on the receiver just behind the trigger and London stamped on top of the barrel. There is some minor scroll work on it but really nothing too fancy and it would also appear the owner carved his initials into the butt. I did a quick search and learned from Wikipedia that "Joseph Manton" (1760-1835) was "a British gunsmith who was to revolutionise sport shooting, vastly improve the quality of weapons and was father the modern artillery shell".

Are Manton precusion rifles common?
Could there be other marks on the gun (date or serial number), if so where?
Should I try to remove the gun from the stock?
How can I identify the calibre?
What can I do to learn more about his gun?

Thanks!

I tried to get pictures of the bore but they kept comming out like crap. I can't see any rifling in the barrel but I can only see a few inches down.


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Guns stamped Manton are usually by one of Manton's sons and are more economy guns than the original Joseph and James Manton made guns. The father and uncle died, I think, in the late 1830's and most of their guns would have been flint locks.
The value and shootability of the gun you have is largely a factor of the condition of the bore. The outside is cosmetic and can be refinished and repaired but if the bore is badly pitted, there is not a lot you can do other than sleeving it which sort of eliminates the challenge and knowledge of shooting an original bore.
What is it worth; need to see photos but considerably more than $20 and considerably less than one in shooting condition. Almost forgot the nipple will be 1/4" x 26 tpi with the diameter varying from .240 to .255 or a bit more.

cheers mooncon
 
Manton In the collector world highly desirable. Like all great London makers , there are alot of copiers during that period so look out for the Belgian fakes .Just look at the proof marks, if any are visible. At the hight of Joesph Mantons fame in my opinion he was more well know for his dullers than his rifles.But it's not to say that he didn't make good rifles.

I have and article from classic arms XIII Issue 3 on Manton dullers by Philip Plotkin. I could scan the pages and send them by e-mail if your interesd.
 
I think it is a major mistake to think that all guns stamped with british proofs and Manton are London best guns. I don't recall ever seeing a Joseph Manton but I have seen quite few economy grade Mantons; friend brought one over this morning in fact. There are large differences between the two in quality of wood, degree of engraving, if any, and the internal design and finish of the locks. I am not saying the Joseph Manton or James Manton guns do not exist just that they are far less common than the economy grade Mantons.

cheers mooncoon
 
If it was a Joseph it would be a flinter as he died before the percussion gun was accepted (but may have built a few, no confirmed guns that I know of) and if it was John or Joseph it would say so on the lock not just Manton. As to Joseph's claim to fame it would certianly not be for a pistol,as he built the finest flint double shotguns and rifles ever built no contest, and in fact is the true father of the modern double gun not Purdey. Having handled and shot an original Joe Manton SxS flinter shotgun it would hold its own in handling quality with a Purdey or H&H and has very simular diamensions and exellent lock work.
rideau get us a pic of the lock work also as it will tell the quality of the gun also. Regards
 
I have handle both Joesph and John Manton guns and rifles, with John making more rifles then Joesph. Pictures would be a help and if there is a serial number I have the books on the Manton family so we could see if the number is in the books
John Manton's family stayed in the making of guns for quit a while after but again not the quality of the orginal 2 makers
John
 
i am lucky enough to have a manton double 14-16 bore caplock shotgun.i have never shot it, as it was sort of a family piece. it belonged to my great grandfather.
it has gold and silver inlayed in the rib near the rear of the gun. it is in fairly poor shape as it was never looked after properly. there is the most amazing peice of walnut on this gun, and it would be worth a fortune nowdays.

i have been toying with the idea of taking it to a pro, and see about a restoration.
 
Joseph Manton of Montreal

There was a gunmaker named Joseph Manton who was born in England in 1830 who lived and worked in Montreal in the last half of the 19th century. Among other things he invented and took out a U.S. Patent for a breech loading BPCR in 1871. He had a brother named William Manton, also a gunsmith, who lived in Kingston, Ontario.

Regards,
Powderman
 
OK, you have an interesting old gun. The great Manton gunmaking family had nothing to do with it.
The lock, buttplate, trigger guard look to be typical for a mid-19th century shotgun.
Is it rifled or smoothbore? I would expect the latter.
It is unusual in that it is full stocked. Very unusual to be a full stocked back action percussion gun.
I suspect that it is a gun that was made up from parts during the 19th century. Many barrels were octagon to round. This one looks not unlike a barrel salvaged from an Indian trade gun.
It looks really rough. I suspect that it would respond well to a bit of skilled restoration, and would present much better.
 
tiriaq said:
Manton gunmaking family had nothing to do with it.
The lock, buttplate, trigger guard look to be typical for a mid-19th century shotgun.
Is it rifled or smoothbore? I would expect the latter.
Click to expand...

This is really interesting; a shotgun eh? My friend who brought this over to me bought 2 guns for $20, the one that he kept was very obviousely a precusion sxs shotgun.

This one that i have would appear to be smooth bore but it is very hard to tell because I can't get much light down the barrel.
 
Good candidate for restoration

Even though it looks rough, with a bit of TLC it could be improved considerably. All depends on what you want to do with it. If you want a shooter or a wall hanger.

If just for display, the wood can be repaired fairly easily, patched where wood is missing and the finish cleaned up and redone. The metalwork would clean up in an electrolysis tank to remove the rust. You might be suprised at what is underneath.

If you want it to be shootable, then it will be more involved and maybe a new stock would be needed. There would be a certain amount of risk of catastrophic instantaneous complete disassembley, a gunsmith should be involved. But it would be a great fun gun to show off, even just to charge it and shoot blank.

Not really worth the dollars to get a professional smith to restore it, but certainly worth it if you were prepared to learn the skills yourself. It is a perfect specimin to learn on. Chances are that first time round a lot of mistakes might be made. But then again, the price was right, you would not be ruining anything valuable.

I encourage you to give it a try. But if you don't know what to do, then do nothing, just hang her on the wall as is. It will be a conversation piece as it is a cool looking arm, busted or not. Leave it until you find somebody with the skills who would be up to the challenge.

This gun reminds me of my buddy who restores antique cars. He drags home old rusted clunkers that have been sitting in farmers' fields for years, everybody else thinks that they are a lost cause. No engine, nothing left of the frame or floors. But he gets excited when he finds one and he spends lots of time and money to fix it up. Not a lot left of the original car when done, but he proves that anything is repairable.
 
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