March of german prisoners in Moscow
- Thread starter snowhunter
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In 1994 CBS's 60 Minutes did an episode "The Last Goulag." One prisoner in the open gated camp was a man, they said his name, an SS Colonel, who was released years earlier but refused to go back to Germany. I think the man was gardening.
When you read about the higher end Wehrmacht officers like Eric Hartman etc., they sem to do about 8 years hard labor before being released. The average German, Italian or other axis member, I don't know.
When you read about the higher end Wehrmacht officers like Eric Hartman etc., they sem to do about 8 years hard labor before being released. The average German, Italian or other axis member, I don't know.
Most of them died. Some from the march itself, others worked to death or starved or died of disease. I did some research... found some numbers 3.3 total prisoners of war.... 1.89 million prisoners.... soldiers were taken to Russia after the war. !3,000+ returned home in the 50s. that is just after a quick gleening, need to read it closer. Most died.
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Any relation to the Luftwaffe Erich Hartmann? Or the South Park guy?
From Stalingrad, 5000 out of 90,000 prisoners survived captivity.
Few "facts" are known about the fate or detention conditions of German EPW/POW's under Russian care.
Most of them appear to have died of either exhaustion, hypothermia, starvation, or various infections (and probably quite a few executions) while being subjected to treatment that is WELL BELOW the standards of the Geneva convention.
As such, this would constitute the worst instance of unprosecuted war crimes comitted by an allied nation since the Convention was signed. I do say nation because my understanding is that such things could only have happened with the blessing of Mr Stalin himself.
Some say that Russian war crimes comitted during ww2 make German war crimes pale in comparison (although the German crimes were generally much more systematic).
It seems that the few Germans whom wrote about their wartime experiences on the Eastern Front end their stories at the moment of their capture.
Most of them appear to have died of either exhaustion, hypothermia, starvation, or various infections (and probably quite a few executions) while being subjected to treatment that is WELL BELOW the standards of the Geneva convention.
As such, this would constitute the worst instance of unprosecuted war crimes comitted by an allied nation since the Convention was signed. I do say nation because my understanding is that such things could only have happened with the blessing of Mr Stalin himself.
Some say that Russian war crimes comitted during ww2 make German war crimes pale in comparison (although the German crimes were generally much more systematic).
It seems that the few Germans whom wrote about their wartime experiences on the Eastern Front end their stories at the moment of their capture.
I have read a number of accounts of german and even italian POWs. Death by mistreatment, maltreatment, disease and ovework were the norm. The soviets were pretty messed up into the fifties, even by admission of the prisoners. Treatment often was determined more by the attitude of who ran your camp or where you were slave labour at.
It is a tough call if who maltreated prisoners worse? The USSR or Japan?
It is a tough call if who maltreated prisoners worse? The USSR or Japan?
Stalin was a Sociopath. Some estimates on the number of his own people he "purged" in the 30's run as high as 33 million! Let alone what he did to the rest of the world.
In terms of Japan vs Russia, the Japanese are a warrior society, but the Russian had a real hatred for their enemies, fostered by years of propeganda and war attrocities. That alone would give the "edge" if you will, to the Russians.
In terms of Japan vs Russia, the Japanese are a warrior society, but the Russian had a real hatred for their enemies, fostered by years of propeganda and war attrocities. That alone would give the "edge" if you will, to the Russians.
Read "The Long Walk"
I worked in the bush for over 15 years with a Lithuanian fellow who walked away from a goulags and made his way to Canada. At 65 he was tougher than most 30 year olds by far. I am sure he saw horrors that most of us consider unimaginable. He's still alive in his late 80s and very active for his age.
"The Long Walk" is not my friends story, but it is a similar account of a small group that escaped by walking for a year to find freedom. Most of us wouldn't likely survive a year long walk to freedom.
I worked in the bush for over 15 years with a Lithuanian fellow who walked away from a goulags and made his way to Canada. At 65 he was tougher than most 30 year olds by far. I am sure he saw horrors that most of us consider unimaginable. He's still alive in his late 80s and very active for his age.
"The Long Walk" is not my friends story, but it is a similar account of a small group that escaped by walking for a year to find freedom. Most of us wouldn't likely survive a year long walk to freedom.
Estimates are that the communists liquidated up to 50 million of their own citizens during the 70+ years that they were in power. It's a toss up as to who was worse-Hitler or "Uncle Joe" Stalin.
Their hatred of the Nazis was complete. They obliterated all traces of German war cemetaries on Russian soil. The huge 84 metre statue of "Mother Russia" at Mamayev Kurgan outdide of Stalingrad looks out over fields that are still strewn with fragments of bleaching German bones.
Their hatred of the Nazis was complete. They obliterated all traces of German war cemetaries on Russian soil. The huge 84 metre statue of "Mother Russia" at Mamayev Kurgan outdide of Stalingrad looks out over fields that are still strewn with fragments of bleaching German bones.
I read few years ago in a New York Times story, that according to German Red Cross, 1.3 millions german soldiers, taken alive as Prisoners of War by the Red Army, are still unaccounted for, and the russians claims to have no records of whereabouts/fate of these german prisoners of war. This story in New Times was written, because a planted forest in one of the former Soviet states, was resently discovered to have the shape of an inverted swastika, as well as the age of this planted forrest was around 60 years old, and it was therefore speculated that this forrest was planted by german prisoners of war.
On the other hand, the germans captured about 4 million russian soldiers, and about 3 million of them died in german captivity.
The understanding I get from watching various Youtube film clips from war time Russia, is that there was a genuine Russian rage over the german invasion of their homeland, and they were well aware of the german attrocities against their countrymen, and the russians took revence when ever they could.
On the other hand, the germans captured about 4 million russian soldiers, and about 3 million of them died in german captivity.
The understanding I get from watching various Youtube film clips from war time Russia, is that there was a genuine Russian rage over the german invasion of their homeland, and they were well aware of the german attrocities against their countrymen, and the russians took revence when ever they could.
Due to the master hate propagandist Ilya Ehrenberg; some say he invented the "six million".
Or that might be grandmaster hater.
Stalin killed as many Ukrainians, (maybe more) than the Germans. After the Germans retreated, and after the war. From prewar, in the 30s, until the end of the war and shortly after, estimates are maybe 25 million Ukrainians killed. Ukraine's population is still effected from the war. Women outnumber men by a lot.
