Mark VII bullets or equivalent?

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Discussing with acquaintance - is there a source of bullets for reloading - in Canada - that would "pass" for 303 British Mark VII bullets - so, probably 0.311" diameter (I do not know that for sure), 174 grain spitzer, Full Metal Jacket with FLAT base - not boat tail. We have found various FMJBT, and some soft point spitzers with flat base - but not as desired. We would be looking for circa 500 to 1,000 of them, or so.
 
They also had exposed lead core bases.

Privi made and likely still makes the equivalent but with cup and core jackets, without the exposed lead core base.
 
The best I've seen so far is the Hornady 174 Interlock. It's a soft point, but at least the base of the bullet is flat and it's the right weight. The base is jacketed however. I've often thought that with the number of rifles in the Commonwealth, there might be enough interest to set up a small production shop, I'd certainly buy them if I could find them.
 
The best I've seen so far is the Hornady 174 Interlock. It's a soft point, but at least the base of the bullet is flat and it's the right weight. The base is jacketed however. I've often thought that with the number of rifles in the Commonwealth, there might be enough interest to set up a small production shop, I'd certainly buy them if I could find them.

That was very nearly word-for-word of my acquaintance's comment - is so many rifles around, why not finding those type of bullets? I have some Hornady 174 grain - but they are Round Nose - but with flat base - and are 0.312" diameter. Same with Woodeighs - is some 174 grain Weldcore PP SN, and some 215 grain Weldcore RN SN - definitely would "work", but not "passing" for Mark VII bullets. I think that exposed lead rear end - mentioned in Post #2 - is probably significant.

It is our impression that for every "1" expanding bullet from 303 British fired at game, is likely "100" fired at a paper target - where the expanding characteristic means nothing. But, maybe is not a popular chambering any more - no demand for it?
 
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It's still a mainstay in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India (with police). I'm pretty sure you could sell a few hundred thousand bullets a year overseas, before you sell any in Canada or the States. The US is such a large market that eve if there's a tiny percentage of shooters loading for 303, it's still a huge market.
 
The last I heard from CamPro they were working on a 303 bullet. I wish they'd just duplicate the Mk VII.

303 MkVII.jpg

Note then final weight was a bit heavier than shown in the drawing.
 

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A very "cool" picture posted in Post #7 - but I would not want "cupro-nickel" jacket material - is just too hard to get that fouling out of a bore - I would prefer more common gilding (?) jacket material. I do not know that we would "need" the aluminum insert - I had read some makers also used wood inserts - was apparently to promote instability (tumbling) when bullet in flesh, but the thing apparently flew well in air.
 
The balance caused by the dissimilar core materials helps it, and as noted above, I'm also good with the later versions that used copper jackets and wood (or potentially polymer today) inserts.
 
I would Absolutely buy a few thousand if someone came out with a quality MK7 repro bullet.

Im tired of building up a load with a bullet then not being able to track down that bullet again.

While were at it how about someone approach Privi for a LARGE order of .303 Brass as well to get the price down a bit. I'm sure a sizable order could get it down to a manageable price.
 
The Mk VIII/VIIIz is a boat tailed bullet, they aren't as accurate in rifles that have seen a decent amount of Cordite, they're fine in guns that haven't seen much Cordite. The Hornady Match bullet is pretty close in potential. If you have a No1 MkIII (*) odds are it probably won't perform very well. This is the same with the Sierra Matchking 174 HPBT.
 
I wanted to share my most recent correspondence with the project manager from Cam Pro, Arnaud. They are the Canadian manufacturer of bullets.....my inquiry was to ask if they would consider to manufacture an "exact" duplicate of the 303 FMJ MKVII bullet. Some of my figures I included im my emails are are purely based on my assumptions and not necessarily based on actual figures so don't be too hard on me, I don't think I'm that far off though

Sent.......

Hi there.

Just wondering if you have given serious consideration to duplicating the WW2 303 British MKVII bullets.....174 grain spitzer open flat based .311 diameter.
There would be a considerable market for you in Canada and the USA.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Thanks



Reply.....

Hi ######

Thank you for your interest in our products and company.
We are presently working on a new 303 bullet, the new design will feature, amongst other things a spitzer point.
I hope it will feed and shoot just as well as the old one, and I hope we will be able to release it shortly.

Thanks again,

Arnaud Patoine-Danylo, ing.
Project manager
CamPro bullets / Metoplus Inc.


Sent......

Hi Arnaud

I would say 99% of people that will be interested in reloading 303 ammunition are for the purpose's of shooting their vintage military rifles at the range and "not" for hunting purposes. There are a lot of people that are interested in reloading a bullet "specifically" designed for the Lee Enfield, and you have the opportunity to fill that market . I would say that the vast majority dont use the 303 for hunting anymore so please dont make another hunting bullet, options for that already exist. Based on that info Cam Pro should strongly consider an "EXACT" duplicate of the FMJ flat based 174gr 303 MKVII bullet that shooters have been looking from the manufacturers for quite some time.
Anything else you make will be considered a disappointment for the vast majority of reloaders and I think your sales will naturally reflect that.

Thanks

Reply......

Hi ###XX

I understand your point of view, and I appreciate you taking the time to share it with us.
Unfortunately tooling and operating a transfer press to produce the exact duplicate of the FMJ flat base 174gr 303 bullets is not economically viable, for a market the size of the 303, and not for a company our size at least. As much as we would like to offer it, as a business we have to make choices, and when we realized that it wasn't viable to produce that exact product we preferred to offer something different that will be economically possible, and offer a good products that will be affordable to our customers and profitable to us, rather than discontinue the 303 british from our catalog forever.

Regards,

Arnaud Patoine-Danylo, ing.
Project manager
CamPro bullets / Metoplus Inc.



Sent.....

Ok thanks Arnaud for taking the time to address this situation.

Yes I have absolutely no idea what is involved in bullet manufacturing so from a practical standpoint of manufacturing and profitability in duplicating the 303 MKVII bullet it appears that Cam Pro has considered this idea at length so we'll leave it at that.

You do make great products and its great to have a Canadian company making bullets and that as shooters we dont have to rely completely on our southern neighbours. We thank you for that.

By the way Arnaud, do I have your permission to share our correspondence (the emails) we have had over this issue? I would like to share them on a thread on Gun Nutz.

Please let me know.

Thanks


Reply......


Sure

Arnaud Patoine-Danylo, ing.
Project manager
CamPro bullets / Metoplus Inc.




So there you have it, right from Cam Pro themselves. Sounds like the economics is the determining factor as usually it is and they did their homework. Too bad for us.....I just hope they didn't underestimate the size of the market
 
As much as I would like to hunt with my 303 can foresee never actually doing so and if I do I'll just buy some factory hunting ammo.
That being said I have probably 750-1000 cases ready to load for punching paper that I can no longer find the Sierra bullet of choice.
I did do some plinking rounds with 123g SKS bullets but really prefer the 170-180g ones. So Arnaud if you're reading this I bet I'm not the only one.
 
Sierra 180 gr Spitzers are flat based, several vendors have them
and Speer 150 and 180 Spitzers are fb

Yes - but actual Mark VII bullets are full metal jacket, not expanding lead tipped, and have exposed lead on their base - which I understand promotes bullet obturation, more than the jacketed flat base bullets do. On a P14, the "pointy" FMJ is used to release the floor plate - so is more than just for flying in the air - not sure there was any other use for them on a Lee Enfield, though
 
A very "cool" picture posted in Post #7 - but I would not want "cupro-nickel" jacket material - is just too hard to get that fouling out of a bore - I would prefer more common gilding (?) jacket material. I do not know that we would "need" the aluminum insert - I had read some makers also used wood inserts - was apparently to promote instability (tumbling) when bullet in flesh, but the thing apparently flew well in air.

I have some Spanish 127 grain .312 diameter bullets, pulled from their 7.62 CETME rounds, with exposed lead bases and "plastic" inserts in the nose.

They have regular copper composite jackets and are some of the most accurate surplus bullets I've shot. Not only that, the felt recoil is very light.

I use them for my Howa 1500, chambered for the 7.62x39, and My old No1 MkIII that has stamped out "DP" marks. Very easy to shoot and velocities can be stunning.
 
A very "cool" picture posted in Post #7 - but I would not want "cupro-nickel" jacket material - is just too hard to get that fouling out of a bore - I would prefer more common gilding (?) jacket material. I do not know that we would "need" the aluminum insert - I had read some makers also used wood inserts - was apparently to promote instability (tumbling) when bullet in flesh, but the thing apparently flew well in air.

I have some Spanish 127 grain .312 diameter bullets, pulled from their 7.62 CETME rounds, with exposed lead bases and "plastic" inserts in the nose.

They have regular copper composite jackets and are some of the most accurate surplus bullets I've shot. Not only that, the felt recoil is very light.

I use them for my Howa 1500, chambered for the 7.62x39, and My old No1 MkIII that has stamped out "DP" marks. Very easy to shoot and velocities can be stunning.
 
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