Match factory ammunition VS Reloads

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sugb

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Apparently there is some very accurate factory ammo out there

I am relatively new to reloading and at first I was under the impression that in order to save brass you must neck size only until you are forced to F.L. resize. This was also a way to gain accuracy(fire formed brass). I now question this though for the fact that there is factory ammunition out there that will shoot quite well. I am currently deciding if I will go with the F.L. dies from now on and this is the reason for the post. I am not looking to start another F.L vs neck battles as i have read a few of those. I am trying to gain insight on why the below questions should be of great concern, namely the headspace questions.

I guess I will start with the questions (assume that all factory ammo is the absolutely best ammo available in a box that money can buy):

1. If headspace is an important factor in accuracy then how does factory ammo become so accurate?
Correct me if i am wrong but would the headspace on factory ammo not be excessive?

2. If bullet seating depth is important than how does factory ammo become so accurate? Any factory ammo I have seen is set nowhere close to the rifling.

My concerns are mainly with that of the headspace. I have read a few different ways that you can use a F.L. die and bump the shoulder a controlled amount. Aside from chambering brass and going by feel, is the best option just to buy a headspace gauge for every caliber you will be reloading for?
 
Bought some Nosler Custom ammo featuring the 165 grain Accubond bullet in 308 Winchester.
Most accurate stuff I ever used in a couple of my 308 Winchester rifles (Winchester model 100, Miroku BLR 81).
That Nosler brass is excellent.
 
what do you define as accurate? that will answer your questions.

factory match ammo is more then enough accurate for hunting, but for a bench rest shooter it's a joke. some guns might shoot great with factory ammo while others won't.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
what do you define as accurate? that will answer your questions.

factory match ammo is more then enough accurate for hunting, but for a bench rest shooter it's a joke. some guns might shoot great with factory ammo while others won't.
Click to expand...

This right here.

Most match ammo will usually shoot MOA or better, assuming that the barrel/ bullet/ load/ shooter combo works, but it will never hold a candle to personalizing and tuning the load to your own gun.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
what do you define as accurate? that will answer your questions.

factory match ammo is more then enough accurate for hunting, but for a bench rest shooter it's a joke. some guns might shoot great with factory ammo while others won't.
Click to expand...

My personal accuracy criterion is consistent from a bench rest 1" or less 3-shot groups at 100 yards.
Both of the rifles I mentioned (Win model 100, BLR 81) are scoped with top quality Leupold glass.
This is hunting accuracy.
The bench rest I like best (and I own 3 Caldwells) is a cheap red plastic press I bought at Ellwood Epps for $49.95 a couple of years ago.
 
What I am referring to for accuracy is the best possible I guess.. What stemmed this thought is military snipers. I would assume that every sniper out there is not reloading his or her own ammo. I would think that they are provided with cases of ammo that are produced in a lot and are all very similar to one another. That being said, and I maybe wrong, but i would not be able to accept that each lot made for each sniper is made to the dimensions of his or her rifle chamber. With all this in mind and thinking of the accuracy demanded by a military sniper, how then are "factory" loads so accurate.
 
My targets are deer and moose the size of small and big bill boards respectively.
3-shot 1" groups @ 100 yards are fine with me for that purpose.
If you want to wear away barrel steel expending pounds of powder and bullets shaving off that last 1/2 MOA have at it with my blessing.
Another critical criterion is that silly thing called a family budget with the wife as the CEO.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
what do you define as accurate? that will answer your questions.

factory match ammo is more then enough accurate for hunting, but for a bench rest shooter it's a joke. some guns might shoot great with factory ammo while others won't.
Click to expand...

^^^ This ^^^

What are your intentions or goals? 1" groups at 100 yards, 1" groups at 1000 yards or something in between?

Chamber lengths vary from rifle to rifle. Commercial ammo is made to fit all and the bullet to not touch the rifling. Bullet ogive has a lot to do with it: in some cases maximum cartridge OAL will be exceeded before the bullet kisses the rifling.
 
I bought my SAKO TRG-22 rifle third hand and a NF scope second hand. I decided at the time that I had no time to reload so I bought 14 different factory ammo to try on the rifle. Did 10 shot group at 100 m to see which ammo matched to the TRG-22. I got hunting ammo to match ammo (no Blackhill though). After 140 rounds, Hornady 168 grain AMAX factory ammo was the smallest group. Second best group was from Hornady 168 grain HPBT. Both 10 shots groups were less than 1" (edge to edge measurement).
Everything was fine until I decided to shoot F Class TR. I chose to use Hornday 168 grain AMAX ammo. My first match - no problem with the ammo. I just needed to learn reading the wind better. Second match - my ammo was doing fine until I reached 900 m. My shots were keyholes. This pushes me to spend another $2000 to get the set up to reload.
Today I decide to run an accuracy test with the two factory ammo vs my reload. At 500 m, 3 shots group. 168 grain AMAX about 5 inches. 168 grain HPBT about 6 inches. My reload about 3 inches.
Like others have said if you are looking for Tactical accuracy (hitting a 18" target), any of the 2 factory ammo will do. If you are looking for precision accuracy like F Class, I think only reload will get you there.
 
sugb said:
What I am referring to for accuracy is the best possible I guess.. What stemmed this thought is military snipers. I would assume that every sniper out there is not reloading his or her own ammo. I would think that they are provided with cases of ammo that are produced in a lot and are all very similar to one another. That being said, and I maybe wrong, but i would not be able to accept that each lot made for each sniper is made to the dimensions of his or her rifle chamber. With all this in mind and thinking of the accuracy demanded by a military sniper, how then are "factory" loads so accurate.
Click to expand...
Don't think that the testing criteria for the military is so stringent when compared to benchrest shooting.
The criteria for the PGW Timberwolf was 90% hit probability on a chest sized target (18" wide) at 1200m using military spec ammunition.

That is not to say that the rifle cannot do much better using handloads.
I know nothing of benchrest shooting but I'm pretty sure they are shooting groups in the teens or .2's
 
Factory Match ammo is basicly the highest CONSISTENT standard that a manufacturer can achieve on an assembly line. It will be loaded with something that performs well in a broad selection of rifles because it comes off the line with the most strict quality control.

Think of hand loads as exactly what they are, hand made artisan ammunition specifically tuned for one application only. Held to the highest standard the reloader has tools and knowledge to achieve. F-class and benchrest is just the evolution of handloading for absolute control of consistency and tuning, I personally believe the reloading is 60-75% of the reason these rifles are SO accurate, rather than the rifle itself. I am sure a bench shooter can confirm a few kernels of powder ruining that perfect score somewhere along the line.
 
I did quite a bit of load development and comparative testing on this some time ago using a Rem 700 heavy barrel rifle in .308 Win. 100 yd group results as follows:

1. Lake City 172gr Military Match - 1.33"
2. Federal Gold Medal Match with 168gr Sierra - .92"
3. 168gr Sierra/41gr IMR 4895 - .62"
4. 168gr Sierra/44.5gr W748 - .63"
5. 168gr Sierra/42gr IMR4064 - .67"
6. 168ge Sierra/43gr WC755 - .61"
7. 168gr Hornady/40gr IMR3031 - .68"
8. 168gr Hornady/44gr Varget - .68"
9. 168gr Hornady/39gr IMR3031 - .66"
10. 168gr Hornady/38gr IMR3031- .67"
11. 168gr Nosler/39gr IMR3031 - .68"
12. 168gr Nosler/40gr H4895 - .85"
13. 168gr Nosler/43gr WC755 - .71"

All handloads featured cases trimmed to same OAL, flash holes deburred, and batched by weight. All used CCI BR primers. This rifle produced essentially similar results with handloads using 3 different 168gr bullets and 7 different propellants. So yes, tailored handloads will produce more accuracy than factory match ammo given consistency in case preparation and individually weighed charges. On looking at my list I should go back and work up some loads using BLC2 which was a go-to propellant for a now passed match shooter friend in the US. I should also try some loads with X2924, a now discontinued ball propellant with a burn rate between W748 and BLC2.
 
Hi. You're going to need an FL die, eventually, even if you're neck sizing only. Your cases will need FL sizing occasionally and the necks can and will crack, sooner or later. You know about annealing?
An FL die can be set up to neck size only and reset to FL when required. It is a bit of a nuisance due to the trial and error process of getting the die set up to neck size only. It's done by adjusting the die up or down by eye. It sounds a lot worse than it really is though. Doing it once makes you an expert.
Or you can buy a neck sizer only(not horribly expensive) and leave both set up for their purpose. It's only the sizer die, not the whole set.
You will need to FL resize every time for a semi-auto, lever or pump action, if you ever buy one of those, anyway. Neck sizing can only be done with cases fired out of one rifle as well. If you buy some once fired cases for whatever reason, you'll have to FL resize before using 'em in your rifle.
1) Headspace has nothing to do with it. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance only. Cartridges do not have headspace. A headspace gauge measures nothing. It only tells you if your rifle is within spec for the cartridge it's chambered in. Headspace gauges have nothing to do with reloading. Mostly just don't worry about headspace. It's not an issue.
2) Fiddling with the seating depth to get the bullet to be "just off the lands" is a load tweaking technique that is done after you have worked up a load.
Factory ammo and chamber dimensions, OAL's included, are set by The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute(SAAMI.org with the W's. Lots of cool stuff there.) and all manufacturers(primarily American only but European makers do it too) follow their specifications. So all firearms can use all brands of ammo. Factory ammo uses these specs Match grade ammo is loaded with components made to far closer tolerances than regular ammo and far greater QC for the loading process itself.
The techniques you use will vary according to what kind of shooting you're doing, but just reloading will give you the best ammo for your rifle. It's tailored for your rifle.
The ammo you load may or may not use or need match grade bullet$(match grade bullets are pricey). Your hunting ammo needs to be consistent more than able to shoot one hole groups. Your rifle may not be capable of that kind of accuracy anyway. It's lots of fun trying to get to though.
 
with the full length dies that i have(.222 rem mag RCBS), for me to size the neck fully i need to bring the die down until it just contacts the shell holder. Anything short of this and only part of the neck is resized getting progressively less as I unthread the die. While doing this I see a .007" reduction in size on the case just below the shoulder. It seems that about half of the brass is being resized. I am not sure if that is something that a person should do or not because I do recall reading in one of the manuals that a person should not attempt this(that being said i'm sure there are a lot of things that the manuals say not to do).

The reason I asked about headspace is that I was under the impression that if anything was to stop you from using brass again with out a F.L. die it would be that your case shoulder measured from your base is to long.

Yes I have heard about annealing. I will be looking in to it more as time passes as brass for this rifle is not easy to find.
 
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