Mauser? identification help please.
- Thread starter Riven
- Start date
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Best that I can tell is that is a Small Ring Mauser - probably from Pattern 1893 - has had much work done to it - drill and tap for scope bases, bolt handle made to be scope friendly. You may or may not discover it is an assortment of various parts - even possibly some Swede m96 parts inside - about all were the same, I think. It would have had a charger support ridge to hold a "clip" for re-filling the magazine, but that has been ground off to install that rear scope base. From your second picture, is possible that someone attempted to "jewel" the bolt body at one time? Many old ones were originally chambered in something like 7mm (7x57) or similar - if that one shows 7.62 somewhere, that would have been done AFTER that round invented in 1950's - so that barrel could be an original that was reamed out - or could be a replacement barrel - I believe either was done by some countries, before they were sold off as surplus. You can see that the shoulder against the front edge of receiver looks very thin - might possibly be a Spanish rifle that was re-chambered to 7.62 NATO? I can not really tell if that stock was original to that rifle or not - if it was an elderly mil-surp, it would have had hand guards, various bands, etc.
Notice in your third picture that the rear of the receiver tang is well proud of that wood - and there does not appear to be any gap between the metal and the wood at very rear end - you can expect that stock to crack about there, if it is used much like that.
Notice in your third picture that the rear of the receiver tang is well proud of that wood - and there does not appear to be any gap between the metal and the wood at very rear end - you can expect that stock to crack about there, if it is used much like that.
The owner says he knows it has been used with 308s for hunting many times. I'm not familiar with 7.62 cetme but will do some research.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Riven, if you are in Burks Falls you are not far from one of the smartest but least prominent gunsmiths in the country. Keith Cunningham has a gunsmith business near Minden. He is busy in the winter, but contact him at MilCun Shooting Complex. He's fired more aimed 7.62x51 rounds downrange than most of us have ever seen. IMHO, ask him whether the Spaniards chambered or proofed their rifles as CETME spec or NATO spec. If there is a doubt, he ought to be able to check for you.
I am in Burks Falls. Thank you very much. I will look into contacting him.
It's possible this rifle will be for sale at some point and I have expressed my interest but now I definitely need to know if it's 7.62 NATO or not.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Maybe will not be definitive, but I do not think there is any dimensional difference between 7.62 CETME and 7.62 NATO chambers - cartridges had significant power differences, but I do not think there was any dimension done different. I have a picture stolen from Internet - is in Spanish - perhaps 1967 or so by Spanish Guardia - their conversion pamphlet - in Spanish - is clear that their "Musqueton" conversions were from 7mm (7x57) to 7.62 NATO. If I read correctly, I think the Spanish were trying to invent a select fire rifle - to use 7.62 NATO - but did not go well - but they could get it to work with a lesser powered cartridge - the rifle was the CETME, so the cartridge that would work in it became known as the 7.62 CETME - much Internet stuff that is what the conversions tried to accomplish - just to make it for 7.62 CETME - but I do not know how to tell the difference - perhaps in the proofing standards, if they had any?
For sure, the one Guardia conversion that I have or had here just said 7.62 on it - did not specify "CETME" or "NATO".
For sure, the one Guardia conversion that I have or had here just said 7.62 on it - did not specify "CETME" or "NATO".
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You are correct. 7.62 CETME and 7.62 NATO has the same case, and the difference is in the amount of powder and chamber pressure.
The issue here is that this is a 93 Pattern small ring Mauser. Unlike a large ring 98 Pattern Mauser re-chambered to 30/06, the 93 Pattern small ring Mauser is designed for 7mm Mauser, and not 7.62 NATO.
7mm Mauser is loaded at ~56,000 psi. 7.62 NATO is loaded at ~60,000 psi. Some suggest 7.62 CETME is loaded to around ~40,000 psi.
Personally, I would not consistently fire a 7.62 NATO from a small ring Mauser. It is simply higher than the pressure designed for back in 1893.
WARNIN
Spanish "7,62" is NOT Nato and Less ".308"
Again this Misinformation (propagated by the original Importers back in the 1980s) about these M1916 and other Converted Spanish Mausers.
The M95 and M1916 Spanish Mausers converted to "7,62x51" chamber, were for the Lower Power, Spanish developed 7,62 CETME cartridge...same cartridge dimensions, different bullet and most importantly, pressure factor.
The Rifles were converted for both Police("Guardia Civil") and Army training use. Some were left in their (original) configuration, but some (the "FR-7") were converted to a CETME Rifle look-alike, as far as sights, etc, was concerned ( FR-7 === Fusil Reformado, 7mm original, or ex-Mauser Small ring --M95 and M16 models).
When they were sold off, the "7,62" mark of Spanish Ordnance was MISINTERPRETED by the US Importers to be ".308", and the added ".308" marking applied.
So everyone MISTAKENLY believes they are suitable for both Military 7,62 Nato and Commercial .308 Win. Ammo.
Whilst the rifles concerned will stand up to occasional use with such ammo, the nature of the Bolt design and the sometimes assumed "softness" of the Receiver steel, leads to Locking Lug setback and excessive headspace. Some suffer already from this malady from "New" due to Inadvertent use with full Power 7,62 Nato ammo in Spain, after they made the switch from CETME ammo to Nato, in the 1970s
My advice if you have any Spanish "7,62" marked Spanish Mauser Rifle of the M93/95/1916 design (Small Ring receiver, two lug bolt) that it be Handloaded loaded with 40,000PSI level loads, in cartridge cases sized with Military spec sizing dimensions (NOT ".308" commercial dimensions) and ex-Military cases used (thicker walls). Current production Lake City cases are fine. ( The original 7mm receiver was set for 45,000 PSI max. Loads)
If your "Spanish Mauser" is a M43 derivation ( "Model 98 action, large Ring") then it is fine for "7,62 Nato/.308 W" ammo, although I still would keep to Milspec ammo and leave the higher pressure Commercial ammo alone.
Kornhauser's Booklet on Gunsmithing the (Spanish) Mausers makes good notes on the internal and metallic problems of Spanish Mausers...since a lot of the 7mm versions were actually built during the Spanish Civil War, by sometimes quite basic factories, their overall quality control did suffer...those made before WW I were quite well made, and followed German quality practices ( as propounded by the Licensor, L. Loewe/DWM).
Best regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Technical Services
Brisbane Australia
I picked up several thousand bullets, pulled from CETME cases that had corrosive/Berdan primers that were faulty.
The powder was still OK and the bullets are .311 in diameter and weigh 112 grains.
The bullets have exposed lead bases and are the same length as 150-grain fmj nato bullets. The length is achieved by the use of a polymer plug in the nose to fill the cavity in front of the lead base.
OP, your rifle was rebarreled and chambered for the CETME round which was developed by a tech company for Spain when they decided to rearm with a full auto rifle, that has the company CETME name and is very similar to the later HK91/93 rifles, with very little effort the mags are interchangeable. All were derived from the roller retarded blowback design of the Stg45.
The folks stating the round was loaded with lower pressures are correct.
This came about after design changes were made to the CETME rifles, which were originally chambered for the 7.92x57 and later for the 7.92x33 and 7.92x45(Spanish design)
When the Spanish finally settled on a cartridge around 1980, it was decided to go with the 7.62 Nato and many of their M58 CETME rifles were modified to handle the slightly higher pressures.
Here's where the fly in the ointment with any rifles chambered for the 7.62CETME round comes into play.
The Spanish experimented with several bullet weights, lengths and types before settling on the Standard Nato round.
This can lead to all sorts of confusion and in some rifles, such as the one in your pic, maybe a catastrophic failure, but if you're lucky, maybe only lug recess setback.
I've seen several of the Model 1916 rifles, which the one in your pic appears to be and is manufactured to a maximum working pressure standard of 46,000CUP (copper units of pressure)
These rifles will likely be OK for some of the higher pressure 308Win factory loads but a steady diet of them will eventually set back the lug recesses in the receiver and maybe on the bolt lugs.
I've only seen one 1916 receiver with lug recess set back. The owner bought the rifle as a "custom" sporter and proceeded to load the cartridges to the nuts.
He's lucky the only result was lug recess set back. Stretched cases were his first warning.
Most Spanish rifles based on the M93 design are pretty well made, not all. The model 1916 rifles all seem to be well made, especially if they bear the Oviedo stamp.
I won't say 308 Win factory rounds will damage or cause a catastrophic failure in your rifle, but is it worth taking the chance???
Spanish "7,62" is NOT Nato and Less ".308"Again this Misinformation (propagated by the original Importers back in the 1980s) about these M1916 and other Converted Spanish Mausers.
The M95 and M1916 Spanish Mausers converted to "7,62x51" chamber, were for the Lower Power, Spanish developed 7,62 CETME cartridge...same cartridge dimensions, different bullet and most importantly, pressure factor.
The Rifles were converted for both Police("Guardia Civil") and Army training use. Some were left in their (original) configuration, but some (the "FR-7") were converted to a CETME Rifle look-alike, as far as sights, etc, was concerned ( FR-7 === Fusil Reformado, 7mm original, or ex-Mauser Small ring --M95 and M16 models).
When they were sold off, the "7,62" mark of Spanish Ordnance was MISINTERPRETED by the US Importers to be ".308", and the added ".308" marking applied.
So everyone MISTAKENLY believes they are suitable for both Military 7,62 Nato and Commercial .308 Win. Ammo.
Whilst the rifles concerned will stand up to occasional use with such ammo, the nature of the Bolt design and the sometimes assumed "softness" of the Receiver steel, leads to Locking Lug setback and excessive headspace. Some suffer already from this malady from "New" due to Inadvertent use with full Power 7,62 Nato ammo in Spain, after they made the switch from CETME ammo to Nato, in the 1970s
My advice if you have any Spanish "7,62" marked Spanish Mauser Rifle of the M93/95/1916 design (Small Ring receiver, two lug bolt) that it be Handloaded loaded with 40,000PSI level loads, in cartridge cases sized with Military spec sizing dimensions (NOT ".308" commercial dimensions) and ex-Military cases used (thicker walls). Current production Lake City cases are fine. ( The original 7mm receiver was set for 45,000 PSI max. Loads)
If your "Spanish Mauser" is a M43 derivation ( "Model 98 action, large Ring") then it is fine for "7,62 Nato/.308 W" ammo, although I still would keep to Milspec ammo and leave the higher pressure Commercial ammo alone.
Kornhauser's Booklet on Gunsmithing the (Spanish) Mausers makes good notes on the internal and metallic problems of Spanish Mausers...since a lot of the 7mm versions were actually built during the Spanish Civil War, by sometimes quite basic factories, their overall quality control did suffer...those made before WW I were quite well made, and followed German quality practices ( as propounded by the Licensor, L. Loewe/DWM).
Best regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Technical Services
Brisbane Australia
I picked up several thousand bullets, pulled from CETME cases that had corrosive/Berdan primers that were faulty.
The powder was still OK and the bullets are .311 in diameter and weigh 112 grains.
The bullets have exposed lead bases and are the same length as 150-grain fmj nato bullets. The length is achieved by the use of a polymer plug in the nose to fill the cavity in front of the lead base.
OP, your rifle was rebarreled and chambered for the CETME round which was developed by a tech company for Spain when they decided to rearm with a full auto rifle, that has the company CETME name and is very similar to the later HK91/93 rifles, with very little effort the mags are interchangeable. All were derived from the roller retarded blowback design of the Stg45.
The folks stating the round was loaded with lower pressures are correct.
This came about after design changes were made to the CETME rifles, which were originally chambered for the 7.92x57 and later for the 7.92x33 and 7.92x45(Spanish design)
When the Spanish finally settled on a cartridge around 1980, it was decided to go with the 7.62 Nato and many of their M58 CETME rifles were modified to handle the slightly higher pressures.
Here's where the fly in the ointment with any rifles chambered for the 7.62CETME round comes into play.
The Spanish experimented with several bullet weights, lengths and types before settling on the Standard Nato round.
This can lead to all sorts of confusion and in some rifles, such as the one in your pic, maybe a catastrophic failure, but if you're lucky, maybe only lug recess setback.
I've seen several of the Model 1916 rifles, which the one in your pic appears to be and is manufactured to a maximum working pressure standard of 46,000CUP (copper units of pressure)
These rifles will likely be OK for some of the higher pressure 308Win factory loads but a steady diet of them will eventually set back the lug recesses in the receiver and maybe on the bolt lugs.
I've only seen one 1916 receiver with lug recess set back. The owner bought the rifle as a "custom" sporter and proceeded to load the cartridges to the nuts.
He's lucky the only result was lug recess set back. Stretched cases were his first warning.
Most Spanish rifles based on the M93 design are pretty well made, not all. The model 1916 rifles all seem to be well made, especially if they bear the Oviedo stamp.
I won't say 308 Win factory rounds will damage or cause a catastrophic failure in your rifle, but is it worth taking the chance???
I do not know the definitive answer about whether 7.62x51 or .308 ammunition is appropriate for use in M93 based Spanish Mauser rifles.
When Samco imported these into the US, they had the HP White Labs do serious testing; no failures.
If anyone is uncertain about using factory 7.62x51 or .308 ammunition, handloading offers an easy way out. .300 Savage equivalent loads should be appropriate.
It is noted that the Swedes produced M96 based sporting and target rifles in a variety of calibers including 7.62x51/.308, 7.92x57 and .30-06.
I think I would be more concerned about the overall condition of some of the elderly Spanish rifles. They saw hard use.
When Samco imported these into the US, they had the HP White Labs do serious testing; no failures.
If anyone is uncertain about using factory 7.62x51 or .308 ammunition, handloading offers an easy way out. .300 Savage equivalent loads should be appropriate.
It is noted that the Swedes produced M96 based sporting and target rifles in a variety of calibers including 7.62x51/.308, 7.92x57 and .30-06.
I think I would be more concerned about the overall condition of some of the elderly Spanish rifles. They saw hard use.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I might have this all muddled up, but I think the Mauser design genius (both 1893 and 1898) were based on the lower quality of steel that they had to work with - not much carbon in it - so could not be really "hardened" by "heat treat" like other countries did. I think the Mausers were typically "case hardened" at surfaces that had to slide under pressure - so bolt lugs, cocking cams, bolt lug seats, etc. This resulted in the "nice" feature that the thing would probably stretch or compress when it failed, rather than shatter or grenade. Hence, it is my impression that a simple headspace check with a FIELD gauge will show if that receiver / bolt has had "lug set-back" or not - at least when it exceeds tolerances. Is probable that one would also feel that when operating the bolt, but might not be many who would recognize that "feel".
So, especially if it is your rifle - get or make a set of metal shims and a real steel GO gauge - you can measure and monitor your headspace as the rifle gets used - you will know as it is getting stretched, by the gauging and shims that you use. Normally, I think most look at headspace as an issue only when the chamber is created - but can be used to monitor through the lifetime of your rifle - and really no reason to get "caught" by using "too hot" ammo in your rifle - you will know, and with a Mauser, you will be given lots of warning - if you gauge it.
You can likely ignore most of that if your rifle was made in the past 40 or 50 years or so - I think higher carbon steel and heat treating is MUCH more common these days, versus then - which will bring on a whole bunch of potential different issues to sort through.
So, especially if it is your rifle - get or make a set of metal shims and a real steel GO gauge - you can measure and monitor your headspace as the rifle gets used - you will know as it is getting stretched, by the gauging and shims that you use. Normally, I think most look at headspace as an issue only when the chamber is created - but can be used to monitor through the lifetime of your rifle - and really no reason to get "caught" by using "too hot" ammo in your rifle - you will know, and with a Mauser, you will be given lots of warning - if you gauge it.
You can likely ignore most of that if your rifle was made in the past 40 or 50 years or so - I think higher carbon steel and heat treating is MUCH more common these days, versus then - which will bring on a whole bunch of potential different issues to sort through.
Lots of great information about Mausers in Kuhnhausen's and Otteson's books.
Yes, the vintage Mausers had case hardened rather low carbon receivers and bolts. This was deliberate. Smooth running wearing surfaces, and deformation when overstressed, rather than shattering.
I have observed when drilling and tapping Swedish receivers that M96 CGs and M38 Husqvarnas are different. The drills behave differently. I assume that there was a metallurgical change.
Yes, the vintage Mausers had case hardened rather low carbon receivers and bolts. This was deliberate. Smooth running wearing surfaces, and deformation when overstressed, rather than shattering.
I have observed when drilling and tapping Swedish receivers that M96 CGs and M38 Husqvarnas are different. The drills behave differently. I assume that there was a metallurgical change.
Yes we were good friends for 30 or so years.
Right on..he was a really good guy. He was the only person I ever knew from Burks falls so when I read it in the seventh post he popped into my head and I had to ask.
