Mauser-Vergueiro > Can i use European 8X57?
- Thread starter brunetp
- Start date
8x57
I do, BUT make sure it actually was converted. In theory they all were but you never know. I used surplus everything through mine and it just keeps on going.
I pretty sure others will chime in, but they are getting on in age so have it checked over if you have any doubts.
One last thing the bolt is a real "joy" to take apart and re-assemble, read up before you do it the 1st time.
I do, BUT make sure it actually was converted. In theory they all were but you never know. I used surplus everything through mine and it just keeps on going.
I pretty sure others will chime in, but they are getting on in age so have it checked over if you have any doubts.
One last thing the bolt is a real "joy" to take apart and re-assemble, read up before you do it the 1st time.
If it has been converted to 8mm Mauser than it is possible, if not, you won't be able to even chamber a round due to being in the original caliber. If the Portuguese converted it, it should be clearly marked "Espingarda 8 mm m" or something like that.
European ammo is loaded much hotter than U.S. ammo so keep that in mind as well.
European ammo is loaded much hotter than U.S. ammo so keep that in mind as well.
Nabs is right. They weren't all converted by a long shot. Just that a lot of the converted rifles made it to North America.
They will take any commercial or milspec 7.92x57 (8x57). The original 6.5 round was a high pressure round as well.
They are easy to tell apart. For one thing the barrels are shorter than the 6.5 and the upper hand guard is shaped like the 98 mauser hand guard. Many of them are missing the original trigger guard with hinged floor plate as well. They were a direct swap with a 98 mauser trigger guard and many were stripped to be used on custom rifles built on 98 Mauser actions.
They will take any commercial or milspec 7.92x57 (8x57). The original 6.5 round was a high pressure round as well.
They are easy to tell apart. For one thing the barrels are shorter than the 6.5 and the upper hand guard is shaped like the 98 mauser hand guard. Many of them are missing the original trigger guard with hinged floor plate as well. They were a direct swap with a 98 mauser trigger guard and many were stripped to be used on custom rifles built on 98 Mauser actions.
Mine is marked very clearly ESPRINGARDA PORTUGUESA 6.5mm and it handles regular 8x57 easily.
MOST of these rifles were converted in Germany in 1937, at which time Portugal adopted a new cartridge, the Bala Normal m/937 which was a precise duplicate of the JsS loading then standard in Germany....... which happened to be identical to the World War One anti-TANK load. Nasty stuff indeed!
Part of the conversion consisted of lopping about 6 inches off the barrels, 6 inches off the woodwork, refinishing and installation of a novel front sight protector.
If the rifle is in original condition, it will have a 29-inch barrel and will likely be in 6.5x58P.
If it has been converted, it will have a 23-inch barrel and be in 7.92x57JsS.
A very handy and super-slick rifle.
Many of them sold in Canada were in near-new condition: just beautiful!
.
MOST of these rifles were converted in Germany in 1937, at which time Portugal adopted a new cartridge, the Bala Normal m/937 which was a precise duplicate of the JsS loading then standard in Germany....... which happened to be identical to the World War One anti-TANK load. Nasty stuff indeed!
Part of the conversion consisted of lopping about 6 inches off the barrels, 6 inches off the woodwork, refinishing and installation of a novel front sight protector.
If the rifle is in original condition, it will have a 29-inch barrel and will likely be in 6.5x58P.
If it has been converted, it will have a 23-inch barrel and be in 7.92x57JsS.
A very handy and super-slick rifle.
Many of them sold in Canada were in near-new condition: just beautiful!
.
We took apart the bolt and put it back together in a matter of minutes, Not sure what you mean?? It's easier than my k98 to R&R. And yes it has been converted, it's says 7.92 or 8mm stamped on it. and i tried my 8X57 at the muzzle and looks like the right size. The barrel is also about as long or shorter than my k98.
smellie is right.
My 2 cents
8x57IS and 8x57JS are the same caliber. Too much confusion about North American loads vs European loads and European loads being hot,... well they are not, They are loaded to spec, North American loads (8x57) are underpowered. Some say to not over shadow the 30-06 cartridge or some silly thing like shooting a .323 dia bullet out of a .318 bore, that's another story.
My experience is that North American ammunition is underpowered and in my most recent experience, off spec (Winchester, cartridge case dia not formed correctly). Privi, S&B all shoot great.
Smellie, what was the spec on the Portuguese ammo, same as Germany at the time?
My 2 cents
8x57IS and 8x57JS are the same caliber. Too much confusion about North American loads vs European loads and European loads being hot,... well they are not, They are loaded to spec, North American loads (8x57) are underpowered. Some say to not over shadow the 30-06 cartridge or some silly thing like shooting a .323 dia bullet out of a .318 bore, that's another story.
My experience is that North American ammunition is underpowered and in my most recent experience, off spec (Winchester, cartridge case dia not formed correctly). Privi, S&B all shoot great.
Smellie, what was the spec on the Portuguese ammo, same as Germany at the time?
There is another easy way to tell if its been converted. There will be a relief cut out of the top of the receiver ring for the S shape bullets, which are longer than the original cartridge it was chambered for.
@ Pblatzz: yes, same standard. Portugal also got a bunch of machine-guns at the same time, these being converted Dreyse 1918s modded for air-cooling and to handle the new-type belts and so forth. The Nasties had converted these for training their own Army with a more-or-less modern machine-gun, then sold them to Portugal as MG-34s became available. IIRC, this was the MG-13 in German service. Beautiful old guns but, living as we do in a Free Country, they are, to us, VERBOTEN. I do believe that Portugal got a supply of German ammo right at the beginning, then set up to make the same ammo.
Portugal's problem in the Great War was that they had German-made rifles and no factory, German-purchased ammo and no ammo factory. When they declared war on Germany in 1914..... those nasty, unfriendly Gemans refused to sell them any more bullets! Or rifles, for that matter! Some folks just have no sense of ha-ha, it seems. RESULT was that Britain supplied the Portuguese Brigade (actually a Battalion)with SMLEs, tin hats, Lewises, Vickers Guns, artillery and everything else. This kept up right through the war, even after the Portuguese Brigade became the Portuguese Division (actually a Brigade). Tomfoolery with formation names was a face-saver: Portugal was Britain's oldest ally, dating from the time of Prince Henry the Navigator.... but it was also just about completely non-industrialised and it was likely the poorest participant in the War. They didn't have modern equipment because they didn't have the money to buy it, but they were willing to help a 400-year-old ally anyway. Gotta respect that.
Following the conversion of the Mauser-Vergueiro rifles, Portugal got a shipment of Kar 98k Mausers from Germany at fire-sale prices. These were ex-Wehrmacht rifles, at least in part, specially finished and very specially marked, many with Mauser COMMERCIAL markings: just beautiful things to behold, big eagle-and-swastika markings on the butts. Reason for the fire-sale prices is that Hitler was trying to get Salazar on his side. Portugal stayed neutral in the Second War, which took guts all by itself: their ONLY contiguous neighbour was Fascist Spain which was more-than-just-a-little-bit pro-Nazi. Lisbon was the European terminus of Condor flights from South America, not to mention being for 6 years the Spy Capital of the World. I knew a B-25 pilot who made it back to England through Portugal following upon a soujourn in a 14th-Century dungeon in Spain.... even stole back the P-38 he borrowed from a Gestapo agent who didn't need it any longer.
Portugal used a mix of .303 and 7.92x57JsS until well after they converted to 7.62 NATO, started selling off their surplus in the late '70s. The FNM 7.92 ammo was just beautiful stuff and it packed one heck of a wallop. Accurate, too. Heavy enough load that it made a '42 run at astounding speeds, although it toasted the brass.
I know this meanders and maunders and likely muddles as well, but I do hope it helps a bit.
.
Portugal's problem in the Great War was that they had German-made rifles and no factory, German-purchased ammo and no ammo factory. When they declared war on Germany in 1914..... those nasty, unfriendly Gemans refused to sell them any more bullets! Or rifles, for that matter! Some folks just have no sense of ha-ha, it seems. RESULT was that Britain supplied the Portuguese Brigade (actually a Battalion)with SMLEs, tin hats, Lewises, Vickers Guns, artillery and everything else. This kept up right through the war, even after the Portuguese Brigade became the Portuguese Division (actually a Brigade). Tomfoolery with formation names was a face-saver: Portugal was Britain's oldest ally, dating from the time of Prince Henry the Navigator.... but it was also just about completely non-industrialised and it was likely the poorest participant in the War. They didn't have modern equipment because they didn't have the money to buy it, but they were willing to help a 400-year-old ally anyway. Gotta respect that.
Following the conversion of the Mauser-Vergueiro rifles, Portugal got a shipment of Kar 98k Mausers from Germany at fire-sale prices. These were ex-Wehrmacht rifles, at least in part, specially finished and very specially marked, many with Mauser COMMERCIAL markings: just beautiful things to behold, big eagle-and-swastika markings on the butts. Reason for the fire-sale prices is that Hitler was trying to get Salazar on his side. Portugal stayed neutral in the Second War, which took guts all by itself: their ONLY contiguous neighbour was Fascist Spain which was more-than-just-a-little-bit pro-Nazi. Lisbon was the European terminus of Condor flights from South America, not to mention being for 6 years the Spy Capital of the World. I knew a B-25 pilot who made it back to England through Portugal following upon a soujourn in a 14th-Century dungeon in Spain.... even stole back the P-38 he borrowed from a Gestapo agent who didn't need it any longer.
Portugal used a mix of .303 and 7.92x57JsS until well after they converted to 7.62 NATO, started selling off their surplus in the late '70s. The FNM 7.92 ammo was just beautiful stuff and it packed one heck of a wallop. Accurate, too. Heavy enough load that it made a '42 run at astounding speeds, although it toasted the brass.
I know this meanders and maunders and likely muddles as well, but I do hope it helps a bit.
.
I have some of that german made '41 ammo for portugal and it is lovely stuff and well marked. I will however, not shoot it.
Smellie, your thoughts and stories are always welcome, they give life to the milsurps we now proudly own and take care of.
Smellie, your thoughts and stories are always welcome, they give life to the milsurps we now proudly own and take care of.
That was the version of history The British Empire wanted everyone to believe.
Actually, WWI from the Portuguese perspective is much closer to this:
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/portugal.htm
It was the rock and the hard place, with both sides trying to screw us, even our 400 year old ally. There were multiple reason we were poor.
The bolt disassembly page on Surplus rifle looks very similar to my Gewehr 88s. My 88 bolts aren't scary to take apart (first time, yes it can be somewhat frustrating) but I would not want to do it in the field as you can loose the bolt head or ejector rather easily.
Great to hear, chances are very good then she was re-chambered for 8mm Mauser, just be sure to look for the 8mm Mauser conversion stamp in Portuguese (should be on the receiver or barrel I think). Do take it easy on her as she is a converted rifle that is now 100 years old.
Desert_Fox
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Leduc County, Alberta
Thank you for that great history lesson! I have never studied Portuguese military history of the 20th century at all!!
I didn't realize they were even that heavily involved! Cheers!
