Max safe velocity for 250gr Cactus Plains hard cast in .454 Casull rifle?

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Northman999

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Fellows,

I just got a Rossi Puma in .454 Casull and picked up my dealers last bucket of 250gr hard cast bullets for it.

How fast do you cast experts think I can safely push this bullet?

I do not necesarrily need full powered .454 rifle velocites from it (I've got some 300 gr XTP-Mag's for that), but it would be nice to know what I could push these lead bullets to if I wanted to hunt big game with them. They seem pretty good quality to a newbie cast lead shooter and I don't think they should just be reserved for plinking.

Thanks in advance!

PS - I did both an internet search and a search here on CGN already. Found a little data, but not really what I needed.
 
It depends on a whole handful of variables. Some (like Andy) say that hard cast should not be pushed passed 1100-1300 fps. The reason is usually given that severe leading will occur (lead deposited in the rifling of the barrel) unless the bullet is gas-checked.

However, a number of factors will affect this: namely your cylinder/chamber mouth dimensions compared to your forcing cone/bore dimensions. If your chamber mouth(s) are smaller then your bore dimensions - you are likely going to have severe leading no matter what you do.

In my 629 the cylinder mouths are .427 and the bore .429. No matter how slow I run those Cactus Plain bullets, they lead like crazy. At 6-700 fps it is tolerable, but I have to run a jacketed round through it every second cylinder to blow out some of the lead or accuracy goes to hell. If I run them at 1100 fps the leading is so bad that #5 and #6 out of the cylinder are tumbling at 10 yards!

However, if I run them at 1400+ with a case full of H110, leading is almost nonexistent. I can run cylinder after cylinder and observe no noticeable loss of accuracy. Why? The reason is that the force of the full power loads is high enough to cause deformation of the bullet; basically it causes the bullet to grow shorter and fatter thereby sealing it tight to the bore wall preventing any (significant) gas cutting of the bullet's side. Now what would happen if I ran these at 1900 fps? I have no idea, but it is probably likely that leading would then become an issue again.

As for safety, I don't think you are going to run into any issues loading cast to high velocity (except for leading). If leading is an issue, running more cast bullets down the pipe is not likely to create enough pressure to be too much of a concern - however, leading up your barrel and then running a maximum load jacketed bullet could cause dangerous/catastrophic pressure spikes.

My opinion is worth what you are paying!
 
Pudelpointer said:
...In my 629 the cylinder mouths are .427 and the bore .429....
Click to expand...

He's got a rifle, so this is not an issue. However:

This is taking the thread on a tangent, but I have a Ruger in 45 Colt whose throats were in the 0.449" range with the bore at 0.452". I opened them up to 0.453" and it made quite a difference in accuracy and leading.

Your throats are "broken" and can be easily fixed by having them opened up to 0.430" or a bit larger.
 
Just a little note...... I don't have anyting in 454, but......

I load Cactus Plains cast bullets in 4 different calibers (9, 38, 40 & 45). All of them lead REALLY BADLY once I break 1000fps. Under 1K it seems to be a nice bullet.

YMMV but I would start slow (ish) and work up to max.
 
notsorichguy said:
Just a little note...... I don't have anyting in 454, but......

I load Cactus Plains cast bullets in 4 different calibers (9, 38, 40 & 45). All of them lead REALLY BADLY once I break 1000fps. Under 1K it seems to be a nice bullet.

YMMV but I would start slow (ish) and work up to max.
Click to expand...

I know nothing of "Cactus Plains Hard Cast Bullets" - could not find anything on the web, and neither has anyone in this thread offered up any info.

- Plain-Based or Gas-Checked?
- I assume these are pre-lubed bullets?
- What is their (measured by you) diameter?

There are a host of possible causes for excessive leading:

- alloy too hard or too soft;
- inadequate lube;
- poor fit (i.e. bullet is undersized for the bore);
- the load develops too much/too little pressure for the alloy, lube, bullet fit, and or bullet design (plain-based or gas-checked base).

Simple huh?

The first thing I'd check is the bullet-bore "fit". Measure the bullet diameter and compare it to your bore groove diameter. If the bullet is not 1-2 thou larger than the groove diameter (especially with a hard cast), that alone can cause severe leading, and worse yet if it's a plain base bullet.

Everyone wants "Hard Cast" bullets, but harder is seldom better with cast bullets for accuracy, leading and terminal performance on game, unless the planets align and you have the perfect combination for your application. Generally I find that cast bullets with a BHN of about 12, gas checked, well lubed, driven at moderate velocities and with a good "fit" can always be made to shoot well, and plain-based the same, but at lower pressures, i.e. lower MV's.



I just went over 4000 posts - when do the balloons drop from the ceiling? :dancingbanana:
 
Andy said:
I know nothing of "Cactus Plains Hard Cast Bullets" - could not find anything on the web, and neither has anyone in this thread offered up any info.

- Plain-Based or Gas-Checked?
- I assume these are pre-lubed bullets?
- What is their (measured by you) diameter?

There are a host of possible causes for excessive leading:

- alloy too hard or too soft;
- inadequate lube;
- poor fit (i.e. bullet is undersized for the bore);
- the load develops too much/too little pressure for the alloy, lube, bullet fit, and or bullet design (plain-based or gas-checked base).

Simple huh?

The first thing I'd check is the bullet-bore "fit". Measure the bullet diameter and compare it to your bore groove diameter. If the bullet is not 1-2 thou larger than the groove diameter (especially with a hard cast), that alone can cause severe leading, and worse yet if it's a plain base bullet.

Bullets are sized to be 2 thou over bore, so that doesn't seem to be the problem. If you call with a larger order he will size them to your specs

Everyone wants "Hard Cast" bullets, but harder is seldom better with cast bullets for accuracy, leading and terminal performance on game, unless the planets align and you have the perfect combination for your application. Generally I find that cast bullets with a BHN of about 12, gas checked, well lubed, driven at moderate velocities and with a good "fit" can always be made to shoot well, and plain-based the same, but at lower pressures, i.e. lower MV's.



I just went over 4000 posts - when do the balloons drop from the ceiling? :dancingbanana:
Click to expand...

Cactus plains ammuntion supply (who don't make ammunition only cast bullets) is a small 1 man outfit out of Tomkins SK (about half way between Swift Current and the Alberta border on the # 1 highway)

Generally the lube is squishy and there are usually clumps of it in the pail when you open it.

While I find the overall quality of the product to be mediocre but at $60/1000 (what I last paid time I picked up 6K) I think the price resembles the product quality. In 2009 I shot approx 9K of these projectiles, in 2010 I shot close to 5K. I would have to say I am familiar with these bullets :)

I have no I dea how hard the cast is or how to measure it.

Hope this info helps.......

Cheers!
 
I have had good results in .44 Magnum by using a wad of styrofoam meat tray between powder and bullet. Deprime a case (preferably without resizing) and use a chamfer tool to sharpen the mouth. You can then use the case to cut wads from a styrofoam tray. I estimate my loads are around 1200 fps and any leading can easily be removed by a few passes of a bore brush. The same bullets work OK without the wad, but I get a bit more leading and they aren't quite as accurate.

For my light loads, I just shoot the same bullet without the wad.

.427" throats in a .44 should be reamed out to allow a slip fit for a .429"-.430" bullet. This will greatly reduce leading.
 
cactus

Bought a couple pails of 45 cactus from same dealer, Medium hard, bevel base, used in two pistols and two rifles. loaded w/ 7gr Unique no leading about 880 fps rifle, about 760 fps 5" revolver, anything past 900 fps real bad leading in all guns. Loaded 22.5 gr H-110/w cream of wheat overfill 1300fps pistol, 1650 fps rifle w/ no leading. hope this helps.
 
Icardinal - I will be sure to try your H-110 load, as I'm currently using H-110 for my magnum loads and I would love to be able to get 1650 out of my rifle for a general purpose camp gun load.
 
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