Maybe a weird question

I don't know how the present day shooters are loading their most accurate ammunition, but not that long ago the people shooting 1000 yds for big prizes and trophies in the US were loading so the bullets were seated "INTO THE LEADE" even with cartridges such as the 300Win Mag.

Freebore is not usually associated with accuracy.

I have TWO rifles that shoot well with "freebore" and everything else, I shoot regularly, couple of dozen, have the bullets seated either touching the leade, or with no more than .005 in off them.

By keeping the bullet in the leade or as close as possible, there is less possibility of the bullet canting as it engraves itself on the leade.

For most hunting purposes this isn't necessary and the reason most hunters don't load in this manner is to minimize chambering issues in the field.

If you're happy with what you have, please don't change anything. Your groups sound fine to me.
 
I don't know how the present day shooters are loading their most accurate ammunition, but not that long ago the people shooting 1000 yds for big prizes and trophies in the US were loading so the bullets were seated "INTO THE LEADE" even with cartridges such as the 300Win Mag.

Freebore is not usually associated with accuracy.

I have TWO rifles that shoot well with "freebore" and everything else, I shoot regularly, couple of dozen, have the bullets seated either touching the leade, or with no more than .005 in off them.

By keeping the bullet in the leade or as close as possible, there is less possibility of the bullet canting as it engraves itself on the leade.

For most hunting purposes this isn't necessary and the reason most hunters don't load in this manner is to minimize chambering issues in the field.

If you're happy with what you have, please don't change anything. Your groups sound fine to me.
The biggest problem I found with loading into the leade was if I needed to extract a round, my neck tension often was not enough to keep the bullet in the case and ended up with powder in the action and a bullet that needed to be pushed out.
Frustrating during practice, infuriating during a match!
The rifle was super accurate though.
I ended up backing off another .010 with little accuracy loss , but reliable exctraction.
A happy compromise.:)
Cat
 
  • Like
Reactions: DGY
Could be fun to experiment with the bullet seating as far as the mag well will allow. But really 1/2-3/4” groups make me quite happy!
 
Could be fun to experiment with the bullet seating as far as the mag well will allow. But really 1/2-3/4” groups make me quite happy!
The only magazine rifle I have is an Enfield in 280, and the most accurate load is far off the lands ( Barnes).
All my other rifles ( match and hunting) are singles shots, either bolt action or falling block🙂
As far as loading I'm a magazine, most rifles I have worked with reach their magazine max length before hitting the leade.
Cat
 
The biggest problem I found with loading into the leade was if I needed to extract a round, my neck tension often was not enough to keep the bullet in the case and ended up with powder in the action and a bullet that needed to be pushed out.
Frustrating during practice, infuriating during a match!
The rifle was super accurate though.
I ended up backing off another .010 with little accuracy loss , but reliable exctraction.
A happy compromise.:)
Cat
Then use some discretion and seat a few thou deeper. This isn't a diss. Anyone who has gone down the accuracy road has gone through this.

With the vast majority of "off the shelf" hunting rifles, turning case necks is a waste of time and can lead to other negative issues.

Some people swear by it but it's mostly a "feel good thing" and I've proven it to a lot of people under real time conditions at the range.

That doesn't mean there aren't a few "unicorns" out there, just remember when people go on about a load or a process, it's what's worked for them in their particular rifle and it's a good place to start.

Hunting rifles "should not" have their bullets seated so they are "JAMMED" into the leade. Eventually that will be a recipe for what you describe.

The chambers of most, not all, off the shelf hunting rifles are "generous" to say the least. This is done purposely, within specified parameters because most shooters don't hand load and not all commercial loads are created equal, even from the same manufacturer.

Experienced hand loaders get to know how to set their full length case forming dies so most of the case stays fireformed to match that particular chamber, sizing only the neck, maybe setting back the shoulder a couple of thou and just sizing a very minor portion of the case wall beneath the shoulder. All of this effort is done to ensure the bullet is engaging the leade in a repeatable concentric manner to keep the bullet as close as possible to the "axis of the bore"

You wrote about having so much neck tension that when YOU jam the bullet into the leade, it sticks in place.

I've seen people do the same thing more often than I can count. I've seen it happen on hunting trips, of which early on in my hunting/reloading endeavors even did it myself.

When I first got into competitive shooting, I tried to do all of the same thing with my hunting ammunition as I did to, hopefully, make my match ammunition "consistent as possible from one round to the next, first time, every time" Not all of them are interchangeable.

I even went so far as to polish the FL sizing die "neck" area so it didn't impose more tension than was needed to hold the bullet "snug" when in the magazine during shooting. This effort also included turning a new expander ball which was a few thou larger than the original.

I did all of this so I could seat the bullet out far enough to "JAM" it into the leade and not have the issues with extraction you described. It worked in that rifle, but the whole set up was "PROPRIETARY TO THAT RIFLE"

It almost sounds like your dies are imposing "too much tension" on the bullet. This can also create some serious issues with accuracy and it's why so many people try to alleviate the issue by case neck turning. Save yourself a lot of hassle and just get a slightly larger expander ball or mandrel, whichever you dies use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DGY
The only magazine rifle I have is an Enfield in 280, and the most accurate load is far off the lands ( Barnes).
All my other rifles ( match and hunting) are singles shots, either bolt action or falling block🙂
As far as loading I'm a magazine, most rifles I have worked with reach their magazine max length before hitting the leade.
Cat
Are your Barnes bullets Monolithic types?

You can likely get away with loading ".050 off the lands" because of the length of those bullets and that you don't full length resize your cases.

The neck isn't just to hold the bullet in place while chambering. It's there to keep the bullet concentric with the axis of the bore and "guide" the base of the bullet until it fully engages/imprints the leade.

The old timers shooting black powder cartridges had to learn this the hard way. They went form smooth bore with a patch to rifled bores with either a paper or Cotton patch which were full impressed in the rifling all of the time, then went to mostly straight wall cartridges and their accuracy issues started all over again, because they didn't pick up on the "obduration issues" and had to create a product that addressed these issues as consistently from firearm to firearm as possible.

They went through it again when "bottleneck" cases made their debut. That's why you see so many of the old timers wearing Paper Patches. The paper patches did two things, they helped to overcome propellant fouling and to provide a leade engagement surface.

There are libraries full of books written on the issues we're discussing here and most of them are based on "personal experiences" of their authors. Not all of them though. Authors such as "TUBB" had the luxury of being able to consult engineers and had budgets which allowed them to tear down what they felt could be improved on and build again on a regular basis to prove their theories.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DGY
Are your Barnes bullets Monolithic types?

You can likely get away with loading ".050 off the lands" because of the length of those bullets and that you don't full length resize your cases.

The neck isn't just to hold the bullet in place while chambering. It's there to keep the bullet concentric with the axis of the bore and "guide" the base of the bullet until it fully engages/imprints the leade.

The old timers shooting black powder cartridges had to learn this the hard way. They went form smooth bore with a patch to rifled bores with either a paper or Cotton patch which were full impressed in the rifling all of the time, then went to mostly straight wall cartridges and their accuracy issues started all over again, because they didn't pick up on the "obduration issues" and had to create a product that addressed these issues as consistently from firearm to firearm as possible.
My hunting bullets are monolithic. Yes and I am rarely. 050 off for best accuracy, more like .125 or more!
My match bullets are all cup and core , mainly Seirra and Berger .
Of course my paper patched and greaser lubed bullets get loaded completly different , breach seated tight into the lands with a wax wad over the BP / filler filled case 🙂
Cat
 
  • Like
Reactions: DGY
You wrote about having so much neck tension that when YOU jam the bullet into the leade, it sticks in place.



It almost sounds like your dies are imposing "too much tension" on the bullet. This can also create some serious issues with accuracy and it's why so many people try to alleviate the issue by case neck turning. Save yourself a lot of hassle and just get a slightly larger expander ball or mandrel, whichever you dies use.
I think you misunderstood my post , bearhunter.
I do not purposely load so I am jammed into the lands, in fact I have never loaded like that for my smokeless rifles.
The load I was working with actually was very accurate, but was into the lands so I backed the OAL off.
I would never purposely load a match rifle into the lands for the problem of sticking a bullet , and all of my hunting rifles are very far off the lands, even my cup and core bullet I used to use, and are also full length sized.:)
My match cartridges only have about .002 - .003 neck tension .
Cat
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom