McGowan/Krieger M14 Barrels- Some clarification 4 U

Hungry

Hungry

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M14 fans:

I was asked this question at the London M14 Clinic yesterday about what was involved with the installation of the McGowan & Krieger M14 barrels that M14Doctor/Obtunded was/is ordering or lining up. :D

The barrel swap is straightforward and there really is no mystery. First of all, I suggest you line up a good 'smith' like : M14Doctor, Doug at Ellwood Epps, Jeff at Valley Guns in Pembroke/ Petawawa area. I've had success sending some of you M14 lovers there. I don't know of other gunsmiths who have contacted me and said, "We can do this barrel swap." So I'm always open to more suggestions because many barrels will be inbound soon. I gotta ask Casey at TacOrd if he can do this. He's a great guy!

M14doctor tells me that the castle nut and the gas cylinder lock (are chinese & metric dimensions) must be swapped. USGI pattern versions are easy to obtain from Brownells! I cannot think of any dealers right now who have these... maybe they will chime in here. :D I've found this out too when I've done Krieger and Douglas conversions.

The op rod guide can easily be removed from your Norc barrel, or bought from Brownells AFAIK. Roll pins are only the 1/8" diam x 3/4" long. Really easy to source. And M14doctor tells me that this is a straightforward install. Those of you who have been to my clinics witnessed all the banging and crashing sounds of the op rod guide pin installation. They sure were fun!

Finish reaming is best left to the professional gunsmiths! :D

Now many of you were asking me... "Do I need to rush out and buy a USGI bolt or is my #### still gonna be intact?"

The issue with the Norc barrel/bolt combination is all about battle rifle tolerances (read: big chamber for dirty, cold, wet, tired, corroded, rusty ammo) to accommodate serious zombie hunting situations where "BANG" must happen at each trigger squeeze. :D Many of you witnessed what happened when I dropped a USGI spec bolt into YOUR M14 receiver :eek:

Your were amazed at how much the bolt slop was eliminated! :runaway: Well these conditions can be achieved also once we enter the Krieger (Obtunded) or McGowan (M14Doctor) barrel upgrade proposition.

Here's the situation:

Tight match chamber (read: full length resize + match chamber = longer brass life from reduced case stretching) can be achieved by ONE of TWO ways:

Method # 1

Buy Norc M14 ($ 450ish give or take), FIND then buy USGI bolt complete for $ 400ish. Drop in USGI bolt and you have tight match chamber. Life is good.
You STILL have a factory chromed lined barrel, but sourcing a USGI bolt is quite hard to do on the EE Forum. Importing them against ITAR USA rules is illegal (let's not go there and discuss that one). This method is brutally hard to do and tougher to justify. Skullboy and I did it, back in 2002 when USGI bolts could be had for $ 75 delivered :eek: IN THE WRAP! No joking!

Method # 2 (just became very apparent thanks to M14doctor & Obtunded)

Buy Norc M14 ($ 450ish give or take), Order/buy Krieger/McGowan M14 barrel for $ 400ish to 500ish including USGI castle nut and gas cylinder lock (inside $ 10 EACH). Shipping from Brownell's will be $ 35 (I warned you :) )

BUT (big but) you now have a match barrel (stainless looks uber cool) installed by a pro, headspaced to 1.630" SAAMI GO Gauge drops in and closes. AND you get many firings out of .308 cases that barely stretch during the firing process. You NORC bolt is perfectly fine to use with the new barrel. AND with the gunsmith installation, you are hovering just around the $ 1K mark. :D See where I'm going with this?

Your #### will not fall off with the use of the factory Norc/Poly bolt. :cool:

And for the price of a Loaded M1A (with not even match barrel), you can have (wait for it....) TWO custom barreled Norc/Poly M14's; ONE with shorter ZOMBIE hunting match barrel! :D The other with M21EBR 22" stainless match barrel for posing in front of the mirror (can you say "Mirror Kommando" ?) or maybe coming out to shoot with your PRA; Provincial Rifle Association Service Rifle matches.

I'm gonna get flamed now by the M1A lovers! :nest: Hey, that's why we bought Norcs/ Poly's... we are cheap. Well at least I know I am (my wife will vouch for this accusation).

So this discussion is the same one we had at the London M14 Clinic, but we never spoke about this at the Barrie M14 Clinic since the barrels were still over the horizon. Now that they are in possession of the 2 boars sponsor/dealers, we can move forward. Save your money for the barrels! :D Quit drinking so much and quit smoking entirely. There... I just showed you a way to get rich!

Better yet, order a steak at the Keg/Kelsey's/ Black Anguish. Cut it in half and bring it home for the next day's feed! Don't eat so much, save on groceries and now you can abide by "Don't buy ONE, buy TWO of them!"

Questions ? Remarks ? Discussion ? Fears of #### falling off? :D

:cheers:

Barney
 
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I should also clear some confusion hehehe
The Krieger Barrels are from Obtunded and Adams Lake Rifle Barrels, I have no affiliation or involvement in thier import and sale. BUT have encouraged the idea of getting these barrels onto our rifles hehehe having orderd one myself.

The McGowen Barrels are a different deal altogether and this project is something i have taken on with the help of a 3rd party. McGowen barrels and thier install will be exactly the same as installing a krieger and cost overall will be about the same.

I encourage folks to snap up these kriegers and am right now going over my install pricing to make the whole process as painless on the pocket as possible hehehe
I'll have an updated add this evening and as Hungry says, there are several other shops capable of installing these barrels and I would trust his recommendations.
 
I wanted to wade in with what is really a neophyte's observations regarding the use of the Norc bolt with a Krieger install.

I had my Norc M305 converted to a Krieger by someone who wishes to remain off the radar as he is not insured to handle retail customer installations. He did a friggen superb job, and because I did not want to go to the hassle and the expense, I kept the Norc bolt.

My background is as a long distance F-Class shooter, and groups .5 MOA or larger are a huge waste of my time. I had little confidence that with an un-bedded Norc, I was going to achieve much beyond a half-MOA but I was pleasantly surprised!

With Sierra 2155 Palma bullets and 47 grains of Varget (BR-2' and Win brass) , I was getting .3 and .4 MOA groups all day long at 200M. This was an non-bedded gun, factory trigger and a Norc bolt.

My feeling is that you can achieve incredible accuracy imporvement by replacing the barrel, and the parts that require imperial threads. Going all-hog is always a good plan, but for those that cannot get the USGI or match bolts, worry not.

We have a Brownells importer in Canada, he is in Winnipeg and his name is Jerry Pomehichuk. I have no idea how you get a hold of him, but he is a brownell's agent in Canada. He shot at the WCFCC in July last year and he mentioned to me that he imports Brownell's stuff.

FYI, I do have a handful of the Krieger's available, so get a hold of me ASAP! These are true match-quality, cut-rifled barrels with tolerances you will simply not find in any other barrel.

Ian
 
the big order we all jumped in on was for 18.5" medium.
I know a couple guys that tell me they managd to pick up 22 inch DMR (Designated Marksmen Rifle) medium as well.

long and short in all of this short chambered barrel stuff.
If you are a plinker and your m14s is a fun gun...... go the shorty route and keep it basically stock. you can fire 308 and comercial ammo in the factory chamber with factory bolt..... and you have a chrome lined barrel so barrel life is good.

But for those who hunt, shoot matches and for those who are simply in love with the platform and want to build up the most accurate rifle they can....... enter these premium barrels.
in the past it was a usgi bolt to shrink headspace to sammi in these rifles.
with the ever dwindling supply of usgi bolts....... keeping the stock chinese bolt and chamber reaming a premium barrel to desired headspace tolerances...... basically negates the need for a usgi save for those building up reproduction m14 rifles on norinco receivers.


new pricing is up for the barrel installs, click the link in my sigline ;)
 
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I can also vouch for Jason Spencer at Gunco - he does stellar work and can install an M14 barrel, headspace it to your bolt and match ream the chamber. Jason uses Obermeyer match reamers.

:)
 
Claven2 said:
I can also vouch for Jason Spencer at Gunco - he does stellar work and can install an M14 barrel, headspace it to your bolt and match ream the chamber. Jason uses Obermeyer match reamers.

:)
Click to expand...

these chambers MUST be frinish reamed using the CLYMER .308 match PT finish reamer (and none other) as it is based on the M14 battle rifle M852 chamber specs, the same specs these short chambered barrels are based on. krieger barrels are set up for using this reamer as the initial chamber dimension are cut using the M852 Match high speed reamer and it is what they suggest to finish with right on thier site. Use of a different reamer is NOT adviseable, but hey, it's your 500.00+ barrel, and you only get to cut that chamber once :D , no matter how good your rifle smith is
 
I know what you are saying Thomas, but Krieger, Douglas, etc. barrels usually come about 20 thou short. I have never seen one where an Obermeyer did not fully cut when getting to minimum SAAMI. And frankly, I'd rather have the Obermeyer match chamber than the M852 chamber - and yes, I have tried both.

The Obermeyer is almost a perfect match for an RCBS X-die, while the M852 chamber is larger in every dimension and your dies squeeze the brass more.

YMMV, but this has been my experience.
 
not really interested in opening up the reamer debate.... it will only serve to muddy the waters. Hungry and I both have been bombarded with questions on the ins and outs of going the aftermarket barrel route.
I'd like to keep it simple and say this..... it's your barrel...... do what you will.
BUT regardless , ALL of the reputable m14 dedicated riflesmiths I know, including match shooters, use the clymer and it will be the only reamer I will recommend for Krieger and McGowen short chambered barrels as thier starting chamber dimension are based on those specs. If it were me, and I really wanted the obermeyr chamber dimension, I would have the blank short chambered with that reamer to start with. It is my understanding that mixing and matching different reamers by different manufacturers is not a professional approach to take with a high end , do it once, barrel. The same method of thinking is also applied to mixing and matching head space guages of different manufacturers..... it's just not a wise thing to do :D
but again.... your barrel, your $$$ , take my comments as merely an educated suggestion

a large part of the discussions involved with the venture I'm involved in to bring McGowen M14 barrels to reality focussed on specific chamber dimensions and what reamer would be used to finsh these on install as this would dictate which reamer would be used to create the short chamber. I conferenced with Mytic Precision specifically on this topic, as Jerry not only has VAST experience in the realm of building rifles for long range accuracy, he is also very familiar with the McGowen product. The prefered chamber for an M14 match rifle is and always has been based on the M852 chamber and the sierra 168 gr match king.
It's an easy order from brownells to get the reamer and pull thru driver, your preferred rifle smith should have no troubles sourcing it.
 
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Hi Thomas,

No worries - I won't argue at length about what match chamber is best, but as someone who has used reamers a time or two, I can tell you that folks will cut a new chamber into a pre-existing chamber all the time - it's a standard gunsmithing job. Assuming it's a good gunsmith, these jobs are done very professionally. Just last year I opened an 8x57 into an 8x63 Swedish. Turned out beautifully.

For further example, many a 7x57 has been opened up to 7mm mag and a few .308's have become .30-06's over the years as just a couple of examples.

I also know for a fact that if you use a GI bolt you have well more than 20 thou on a krieger or Douglas short-chamber barrel. It's AMAZING how "short" those two makers chamber their rifle barrels - almost to the point you wish you had a roughing reamer and not just a finishing reamer. Been there, done that. The chamber someone ultimately wants in their rifle is NOT limited by the realities of the machining of the chamber - only by personal choice. The reamers align by the bore itself, not the pre-cut chamber and I can assure you with first-hand experience that the Obermeyer will work every bit as well as the Clymer, assuming you want an Obermeyer chamber (and in my last build I did). My groups didn't change it size, but my brass lasts a loading or two longer now ;)
 
Obtunded said:
We have a Brownells importer in Canada, he is in Winnipeg and his name is Jerry Pomehichuk. I have no idea how you get a hold of him,
Click to expand...

Why is he not a dealer on this board? Perhaps someone who knows him should suggest this obviously wise business step next time they talk to him.
 
What would be the point of hiring someone to import from brownells for you, when you can just do it yourself through Brownells? The paperwork is easy, the hassle is the U.S. state dept.





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It's a 1/2 hour of paperwork followed by weeks of waiting on other people. Hiring someone else to do it is the same waiting time, and they're charging a premium for doing it.



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Krieger is a better known manufacturer, but I'll bet there are guys out there who will swear by both brands.

There are enough other tangibles out there that affect accuracy that you need to take more into account, such as bolt lug contact, gas system unitizing and shimming, bedding, quality of handloading, etc.

I think you would be happy with either though the Krieger will likely increase resale value a bit more.
 
down range you may not see much difference between the two but Krieger is a more well known barrel maker.... thus the high $$$ the barrels fetch (520 landed for a CM version)
krieger is also much harder to source "on demand", in Canada, and this also lends to them being sought after. There are also Douglas and Hart, both well known M1A barrel makers, but again, not easy to source on demand, in Canada.
I do not have the full history on McGowen but this manufacturer was recommended to me by Mystic Precision as a source for quality aftermarket barrels that could most probably be sourced on demand. McGowen has shown much interest in joining the market to supply M1A and M14 type, match rifle barrels for the North American market and this endeavor i am involved in will see the first of thier M1A barrels go to the lucky CGN members who are on my list ;)
 
On the Criterion site they will tell you the Krieger barrel is more accurate due to the way the way the barrel is made and how the rifling is cut. Hence the price increase. Does accuracy increase proportionately with the price increase,I don't know, I'm guessing probably not. Would you notice the difference in a 400.00 dollar rifle probably not. I guess with a Krieger barrel there's no one left to blame but yourself for your bad shooting, oh wait, there's still the ammo, the scope, the wind, humidity.......http://w w w.criterionbarrels.com/about.html
 
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