Milsurp Accuracy pt. 2

Ganderite

Ganderite

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I went back to the range to follow up on the SKS and Mosin Nagant accuracy test.

My theory is that the accuracy expectations of SKS rifles is because somebody once posted a 5 shot group that looked impressive and that somehow became the general expectation for SKS. My test has included examples of other milsurp rifles and I have concluded that the average milsurp runs around 4".

Today I shot a #4 sporter with military ball ammo, iron sights. 10 shots in 5.5".

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I have a SKS with a receiver mounted scope (100% solid) that I have tweaked a bit (bedding) and it is now a stunningly mediocre shooter. This is as good a representative SKS as any. 10 shot groups at 100 yards with milsurp ammo run 4.0" to 6.0"

Today I tried a handload in it. Actually, a "Mexican Match". Military bullet was pulled and powder charge re-weighed at 26 gr. (About 1/2 gr over the average.) A Hornady 125 gr Soft Point was substituted. This is a quality bullet that should group better.

It worked. A Romanian milsurp group today was 6.6". The Mex Match was only 3.8"

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In a similar vein, I took some Russian 7.62x54R and pulled the bullets. The powder charge of 48.5gr was re-weighed at 46 gr. I was looking for a load that would not kick so hard in my M44. I tried this reduced load in a 91/30, a PU sniper and a M44. Accuracy was as good, recoil was reduced.

My conclusion is that the SKS shoots about the same as other milsurps (not including Swedish Mausers and K31s, and a well tuned Lee Enfield).

Testing was done at 100 yards, off sandbags. Because rifles were not necessarily zerowed, I stapled aiming marks on a large sheet of paper, so groups were captured, regardless of where the rifle was shooting.

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07blackwater said:
Only accurate rifles are interesting.

... Col. Townsend Whelen
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I quite agree. And it is interesting to take an inaccurate rifle and tune it up so it drives tacks. Or at least try....

The word "accurate" means different things to different rifles. For a milsurp, I would say 2" is "Real Accurate". For a hunting rifle, I would say 1" is "Real Accurate". Competition rifles start to get accurate at a half minute.
 
Ganderite said:
I quite agree. And it is interesting to take an inaccurate rifle and tune it up so it drives tacks. Or at least try....

The word "accurate" means different things to different rifles. For a milsurp, I would say 2" is "Real Accurate". For a hunting rifle, I would say 1" is "Real Accurate". Competition rifles start to get accurate at a half minute.
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That's about what I think too.
 
My 1900 96/38 swede was disappointing with factory 160 grain imperial. 4-5 inches at 50 yards!

With hand loads it shoots sub moa @ 100.

It's loads of fun to get a rifle shooting right.
 
I have found similar results with most of my military surplus rifles.

SKS 4-8" with surplus. Trigger time with any SKS really improves these results, I have a Chinese SKS with such a terrible, long gritty trigger that has a binding point halfway through the pull. Quick and heavy pulls of the trigger have brought the groups down considerably. I was able to do a 3/4" 3 shot group at 50m with an SKS I owned previously, I believe the ammo was MFS or Hornady. The best I could do to repeat it was 1.25" but I traded the rifle shortly thereafter, I didn't perform any thorough accuracy tests afterward. In fact, I believe I traded it to you, lol.

I have a particular liking for Mosin-Nagant rifles and have found that with the full-sized rifles doing all the traditional accurizing methods really makes a huge difference. You can definitely get them down to 2" and maybe even 1" with a Finnish trigger or a trigger job and a scope. This depends on bore size and condition, obviously.
 
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My MN was horrid at first. I used 2'x2' targets at 100yds s and I was only able to hit the target twice out of 5 shots. After a lot of little fiddling I was able to get 2" groups at 100 yard using 200g MFS soft points.
 
I sold my SKS, it didn't provide the accuracy that I was looking for during short range matches, compared to a 5.56mm. I'm shooting a pre 1912 Milsurp match in Phoenix come February with a Mauser M1896 using 150 grain lead gas checked lead bullets. I'm currently getting 1-2 inch groups a 100 yards with it and I really haven't done a lot of load development with the rifle. As Mosins are not allowed into the US for matches, I've never considered them.
 
Garand said:
I sold my SKS, it didn't provide the accuracy that I was looking for during short range matches, compared to a 5.56mm. I'm shooting a pre 1912 Milsurp match in Phoenix come February with a Mauser M1896 using 150 grain lead gas checked lead bullets. I'm currently getting 1-2 inch groups a 100 yards with it and I really haven't done a lot of load development with the rifle. As Mosins are not allowed into the US for matches, I've never considered them.
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Why aren't M91's allowed in the US matches? 1891 is well before 1912.
 
bp2626 said:
Why aren't M91's allowed in the US matches? 1891 is well before 1912.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant#United_States
U.S. Rifle, 7.62 mm, Model of 1916: Due to the desperate shortage of arms and the shortcomings of a still-developing domestic industry, the Russian government ordered 1.5 million M1891 infantry rifles from Remington Arms and another 1.8 million from New England Westinghouse in the United States. Some of these rifles were not delivered before the outbreak of the October Revolution and the subsequent signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk which ended hostilities between the Central Powers and Russia. When the Bolsheviks took over the Russian government, they defaulted on the Imperial Russian contracts with the American arsenals, with the result that New England Westinghouse and Remington were stuck with hundreds of thousands of Mosin–Nagants. The US government bought up the remaining stocks, saving Remington and Westinghouse from bankruptcy. The rifles in Great Britain armed the US and British expeditionary forces sent to North Russia in 1918 and 1919. The rifles still in the US ended up being primarily used as training firearms for the US Army. Some were used to equip US National Guard, SATC and ROTC units. Designated "U.S. Rifle, 7.62mm, Model of 1916", these are among the most obscure U.S. service arms. In 1917, 50,000 of these rifles were sent via Vladivostok to equip the Czechoslovak Legions in Siberia to aid in their attempt to secure passage to France.

During the interwar period, the rifles which had been taken over by the US military were sold to private citizens in the United States by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, the predecessor agency to the current Civilian Marksmanship Program. They were sold for the sum of $3.00 each. If unaltered to chamber the US standard .30-06 Springfield rimless cartridge, these rifles are prized by collectors because they do not have the import marks required by law to be stamped or engraved on military surplus firearms brought into the United States from other countries.

As I previously mention "US Government Supplied"
 
In my experience, most of the accuracy derived from milsurps depends on two things. The better the condition the rifle is in usually the more accurate it is. Next of course is the ammunition. As with every other rifle type, there are always exceptions.

I have five milsurps that are tack drivers from the day they were cleaned of storage grease. One is a 1950 Long Branch No4 MkI* that will shoot the old 154 grain Winchester Gray Box ammo (similar to today's white box) into consistent moa groups. It will do the same with selected handloads.

The next rifle is a 1908 Brazilian Mauser chambered in 7x57.

The third is an East German rebuild chambered in 8x57.

The fourth is a Soviet marked Mosin 91/30 with a PE scope.

The fifth is a Martini chambered in 303 British.

As long as the ammo is consistent, these five rifles consistently churn out moa and sometimes better groups. All of these rifles are in close to or excellent condition inside and out.

When it comes to run of the mill surplus and even fresh factory ammunition they usually don't shoot much better than two to three minutes of angle.

I also have a Garand M1D that regularly shoots into less than two moa. I have some of the excellent RED STRIPED "regulated" ammo that I feed it. This stuff shoots very well in any rifle with a decent bore chambered in 30-06. I am down to my last 20 boxes so I use it sparingly.

Condition and ammunition are the big issues with milsurp accuracy. If a milsurp in EXC condition is not shooting well, it can usually be attributed to ammo. The other cause could be grease or oil in the bedding ways or receiver screws that are to loose or to tight. Triggers are a matter of getting used to. Then again, some rifles in factory fresh condition, military or sporter are just dogs from day one.

Last year I sold a beautiful all matching EXC M96 Swede to a CGNer from Vernon. His son commonly shoots sub moa groups with that rifle. Again, the key word here is excellent. His son is an incredible shot and has excellent vision to go along with this rifle.

When it comes to milsurps, I find that after about 1500 rounds the accuracy starts to taper off. Then it stays reasonable for the next 2500 to 3000 rounds and quickly goes to hell from there.

I also have a couple of civilian EAL rifles similar to Ganderites but in much better condition than his lovely, very low serial numbered piece. They both shoot better than his with modern factory ammo and even better with selected hand loads. They also, like my No4 and Martini shoot very well with mid seventies dated FNM/Greek and Canadian IVI ammo. The case lots I picked up of those were very consistent and I sold the other less accurate lots acquired at the same time.
 
Model 91 Mosin Nagants are allowed to shoot in CMP matches in the U.S. they shoot in the Vintage Military Rifle matches with every other military bolt gun except the Springfield which due to number here, is their own category.
 
SW28fan said:
Model 91 Mosin Nagants are allowed to shoot in CMP matches in the U.S. they shoot in the Vintage Military Rifle matches with every other military bolt gun except the Springfield which due to number here, is their own category.
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Yes, but BATF will not allow us to bring them into the US from Canada!
 
I have to agree with bearhunter, a 4 or 5 inch group at 100 yards is pretty poor accuracy compared to most of the Lee Enfields I have shot off the bench. Most I have seen will shade 2 inches with a decent bore.
 
Mike Webb said:
I have to agree with bearhunter, a 4 or 5 inch group at 100 yards is pretty poor accuracy compared to most of the Lee Enfields I have shot off the bench. Most I have seen will shade 2 inches with a decent bore.
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That is 4" with Ganderite shooting open sights. Keep in mind the man is in his 70's.
 
Ganderite said:
What did you do? The first think I do is put a shim under the trigger bar to reduce creep.
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Shim the sear (as you said already I believe).
File and polish the sear and bolt lug slightly to lower trigger pull (easy does it and drop test after for sure)
Recrown the muzzle if it's worn.
Bed the action and the entire barrel channel with epoxy. Will improve consistency drastically in the sloppy loose fitting stocks.

Most important though start with a Mosin with a solid bore! lol

I will be posting a thread soon with my "accurized" cut down Mosin next time I get out shooting. It's impressive what you can actually get with them. I'm managing a tight consistent 4-5" at 100 meters with 10 round groups using surplus ammo with the stock iron sights!

Also thanks for these posts, it's nice to see some realistic honest accuracy postings instead of "one handed sub MOA hangun groups at 60 feet" stories I keep reading on here :jerkit:
 
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