Minimum amount of energy

Bingo!!!

KE, momentum, Taylor knock out, what have you does not take into account penetration and expansion. There is no simple formula to predict what will happen.

For example, you have three bullets, the same weight, same impact velocity on broadside presentation and hard quartering away.

first bullet is a varmint type bullet. On side expansion is enormous. If it gets through the ribs, jelloed lungs. Massive bruising on the offside, maybe. Almost never exits (only fragments/shrapnel found). Hard quartering or hitting bone and that bullet may not get to the boiler room. Same KE, bad choice. Reason high impact velocity, 'fragile' bullet. Slow this bullet way way down and expansion become 'premium'. Perfect for LR.

Second a SST, hunting BT or Gameking. small entrance hole, large internal expansion. Maybe exit, maybe not. If they exit, usually cause a 2 to 3" exit hole. Hard quartering or shoulder and will make it though to the boiler room but usually will not exit. Perfect for those who want energy dump in the boiler room. Usually the type of impact associated with 'shock'. What's left of the bullet if it stays in the animal would be around 40% weight. Perfect if impact velocity range is 2000 to 2800fps.

Third a premium like a Barnes or Failsafe. Small entrance hole, 1 to 1.5" exit hole. Almost always exits off side ribs. Internals are damaged but still identifiable. Quartering or hitting bone no issue making through the boiler room. Probably exit. For those who prefer an exit wound for a blood trail. Slow this bullet way down and it may not even expand - bad choice for LR.

That's how the bullets were designed. The impact velocity and hunting style determined the best choice. KE was all the same with wildly different results on game.

We can only go by 'gut' feeling based on pass experience and what the bullet manf says. Bullets do the killing. Just chose the one that will arrive at its best working velocity based on your muzzle velocity and hunting distance/game. The same damage will result dispite grossly different numbers.

Jerry
 
Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.
Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside the animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs.
The bigger the bullet diameter, the greater the frontal area and the larger the hole it tends to make in an animal.
Velocity has a great impact on expansion. Generally, the higher the velocity, the more violent the expansion. Bullets are designed for a particular range of impact velocities. :?
 
I've never seen a ft lb kill anything...

I've seen proper shot placement with an adequate cartridge and a good bullet matched for the job kill really well. :D
 
And I have seen Long Bows with 100lbs of Draw, and a very sharp broadhead arrow drop a deer dead as a doornail. I'm with Gatehouse on voting for shot placement. 8)
 
Years back i watched a video put out by a body armour company. In one segment they showed the fallicy of high energy "knocking" an animal down. A powerfull rifle was fired at a half of beef hanging mere feet from the shooter. Result was the meat barely wiggled. Another demo was a bullet failling to penetrate an armoured vest but a knife easily being driven through it.
Lots of good info here on the importance of matching bullet construction to impact velocity, using adequate velocity to create desired expansion of chosen bullet and proper penetration, momentum , etc. They are all important.
On another gun site there was a discussion about the actual energy available. If you accept the energy comes from the powder charge it is sobering to realise the powder charge has about enough energy to boil a cup of water. Remeber much of the energy has been lost in heating the barrel, overcoming air resistance etc so only a part of the powder charge's energy is delivered on target.
 
Murf said:
. Another demo was a bullet failling to penetrate an armoured vest but a knife easily being driven through it.
.
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And most bullets will get stopped by a sandbag, but many broadheads will cut through a sand bag... :wink:
 
The ideal is to put all of the energy from the bullet into the vitals. If you shoot long range then high velocity will help you get on target but is not needed at short range. Arrows kill by cutting, the 1 1/8" broadheads kill much differently than a bullet. Shock has a lot to so with how a bullet kills, anything fired into the right spot will bring down a deer from the 22LR to the 50 BMG but what should be used. The need for the energy that is available to be trasfered to the game, this is why soft point ammunition is used. If you only needed to punch a hole we would all be shooting FMJ rounds. I believe that if the bullet enters a vital area and transfers most of its energy than any centerfire from 6mm and up is enough. I like the idea of hitting the back shoulder, sure you might lose a little meat but in the woods we hunt it will save a lot of tracking time, right through the bolier room and transfer any remaining energy into the shoulder, this will generally knock the deer on its ass.
 
a Barnes X whistles through game, exits with a high velocity (thus energy)

WOuldnt that mean a higher energy destruction path compared to say a soft point that expands alot and dumps ALL its energy into the animal, but with a shorter wound channel that gets more narrow as the bullet slows down..???


just a thought


Id rather have a bullet exit and make another hole to bleed
 
yes ft/lb doesn't tell the wole (pardon the pun) story. If I hook a .308" rod to the front of my truck and let it start to roll a bit on a hill, say to 10 ft/second how far do you think that'd penitrate. Not much in the energy dept. though
 
yes ft/lb doesn't tell the wole (pardon the pun) story. If I hook a .308" rod to the front of my truck and let it start to roll a bit on a hill, say to 10 ft/second how far do you think that'd penitrate. Not much in the energy dept. though
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well - technically you'd have to take into account the vehicle's weight because the momentum would still be applied to the bullet - but i bet the animal would still be dead if it was stupid enough to stand there till it got hit! :lol:
 
The ideal is to put all of the energy from the bullet into the vitals.
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Is it?

My idea is to impart massive damage to the vitals. Energy be damned... :D Energy is there, but it matters not to me if all the energy is tranferred to the vitals. A big gaping hole through the vitals and out the other side works pretty damn good.

The need for the energy that is available to be trasfered to the game, this is why soft point ammunition is used. If you only needed to punch a hole we would all be shooting FMJ rounds.
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Well, there is a difference between 'punching a hole' and 'punching a large wound channel. :wink: A bullet like the X or Partition punches a long wound channel, but often exits.
 
Gatehouse said:
The ideal is to put all of the energy from the bullet into the vitals.
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Is it?
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I don't think it is. The actual energy contained by a shell full of powder is very small, no matter what you're shooting. Not enough to make a cup of tea, as someone else posted.

Bullets kill by disrupting vital organs. If it were the energy transfer that killed, bulletproof vests would not work. When a person in Kevlar is shot, all of the energy is transfered to their torso. If the bullet does not penetrate, it is unlikely to kill.

Another example would be shooting something with a 22-250 and varmint bullet, vs a 45-70 with a hardcast. The 22-250 will transfer all of its energy to the outer flesh of the animal, while the 45-70 might well go straight through. Comparable kinetic energy, the 22-250 is dumping all of it, the 45-70 is "wasting" some, but I think that is the shell I would choose.

Of course it is not that simple either, as the shockwave from a fast moving bullet can disrupt tissue in a larger area than that of the permanent cavity, but kinetic energy overemphasises this if you ask me.
 
When a person in Kevlar is shot, all of the energy is transfered to their torso. If the bullet does not penetrate, it is unlikely to kill.
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Oh sure, cloud a good debate with facts........
 
Lets not overlook the effect of hydrostatic shock...as mentioned here on this page about the history of the .303 British:
http://www.african-hunter.com/303_british.htm

At these greatly increased velocities not only was there another quantum leap in even flatter trajectories, but now there was a greater effect evident on those hit by such bullets. Not only were the lighter, pointed bullets more unstable, tending to deform in flesh, but the velocity of the bullet was causing damage to tissue even some distance away from the actual bullet track, and exit wounds were now large, gaping, unpleasant affairs. Although not fully understood at the time, these were manifestations of hydrostatic shock. “Hydro” is, of course, anything to do with water. Among its other properties, one of the physical characteristics of water is that it is incompressible. This means that shock waves radiate through water very efficiently (just watch ripples on a pond when you throw in a stone, a half brick, the dog or whatever). Guess what the human body is largely made up of. That’s right - water. This is the same phenomenon that causes the familiar blood-shot, bruised meat in an animal when hit with a high velocity hunting bullet. All in all, anyone hit by one of these new bullets stayed hit! You can be sure that this was not lost on the British Army.
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