Mk3 vs No4

ENFIELD1911

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Me and a buddy got talking about this the other day at the pub and the topic was which action by desighn is stronger. Metallurgy of the time not being an issue in this question but rather if each was built side by side with today's manufacturing to there period prints and barrelled with the same barrels for arguments sake. My thinking is that manufacturing of the trench proven Mk3 has been lightened up in the No4 for cost and time. But at the same time I don't see Mk3's being converted to .308 like the the No4's. Albeit that could be from the metallurgy of the period but I don't know so I'm posting this to possibly earn a pint or pay a pint
 
No. 4s are stronger actions, when tests were done in the 50s attempting to convert both No. 3s and No. 4s to 7.62 Nato only the No. 4s were strong enough . That being said India made the Ishapore 2A and 2A1s which used better steel than the original Mk. 3s and can handle 7.62 Nato just fine.
 
One must remember that No4s were meant to be an improvement and not just in cost. Factories were already geared for No1 production so there had to be an additional benefit for new manufacture.
 
As I understand it, the No.4's had beefier barrels and the concept of "free floated" barrels was better understood when the design came out. Add to that the fact that headspace could be adjusted with changing the bolt head on the No.4 whereas the No.3 had to have it's bolt ground to fit the action. I may be wrong on this, but this is what I was told by a pretty knowledgeable guy I know.
 
I wonder if the issue with No. 1 rifles and the NATO round related to how the shoulders in the body were spot hardened. I believe by No. 4 time it was done by induction and would be curious to find out how it was done in 1903 with the first SMLE's or even earlier with the MLE and MLM rifles. It seems to me that for the No. 4 to be "stronger" in a meaningful way it would have to have more metal in the cross-section in the area between receiver ring and locking shoulders.

milsurpo
 
No. 4 locking shoulders are spot hardened, as are SMLEs.
There is more steel in the No 4 receiver.
The primary change by the Indians was a relaxation of proofing standards. No oiled proof round. This prevented bent receivers.
No. 4 barrels are not free floated.
 
I wonder if the issue with No. 1 rifles and the NATO round related to how the shoulders in the body were spot hardened. I believe by No. 4 time it was done by induction and would be curious to find out how it was done in 1903 with the first SMLE's or even earlier with the MLE and MLM rifles. It seems to me that for the No. 4 to be "stronger" in a meaningful way it would have to have more metal in the cross-section in the area between receiver ring and locking shoulders.

milsurpo

SMLE actions were low carbon steel.

No4 receivers are alloy steel.
 
No. 4 locking shoulders are spot hardened, as are SMLEs.
There is more steel in the No 4 receiver.
The primary change by the Indians was a relaxation of proofing standards. No oiled proof round. This prevented bent receivers.
No. 4 barrels are not free floated.

Stole the words right out of my mouth. :)
 
Guess when it comes to sporterizing, I've always preferred the NO. 4 cause of the heavier barrel. Son bought a Mk 3, barrel was bent enough to shoot around corners. :d

Grizz
 
This is all very helpful knowledge and there were improvements along the way but the question is manufactured at the same time out of the same metal made to be the best they can be to their Blue print design which one is the stronger action and which one will stand up to a higher pressure
 
I would suggest that the No. 4 is a stiffer action. Neither is particularly well suited for high pressure cartridges.
 
I would suggest that the No. 4 is a stiffer action. Neither is particularly well suited for high pressure cartridges.

For example, 8x57. When the Turks rechambered some SMLE's in 8mm they welded a steel strap on the right side of the body! Would be a fascinating piece to own.

milsurpo
 
This is all very helpful knowledge and there were improvements along the way but the question is manufactured at the same time out of the same metal made to be the best they can be to their blue print design which one is the stronger action and which one will stand up to a higher pressure

They are both spindly actions with a small diameter rear-locking bolt. The whole action whips and flexes. Piece for piece the No.4 is a better design with more steel in the sidewalls and receiver ring. The magazine cut-off slot all by itself seriously weakens right side of the No.1.
 
The Brits seemed to have broken the code when they devised the P14 to replace the LE. But military folk are a pretty conservative bunch; they had lots of LEs on hand after WW1 and it did see them through that one.
 
In Ian Skinnertons Australian Enfield variations there is a chapter on how they perfected the conversion of the No.1 to 7.62. The problem was the cost to convert the rifles was more than 50% of a new LA1A rifle. The conversion required using EN grade steel and improved heat treating. The Australians gave the conversion plans to India and they made the Ishapore 2A-2A1s with the higher grade steels.

"BUT" do not forget the British wanted a stronger action before WWI and had started testing with the P-14 rifle. The British military to this day still use two oiled proof cartridges, but also remember if the No.1 Enfield rifles headspace increased .003 or more after proofing it failed proof testing.

The Enfield rifles original design with its replaceable bolt heads allowed the rifles to be made from cheaper and softer steels. And the No.4 was designed with more modern steels with faster production methods.

And don't forget the Remington 788 with rear locking lugs was made in .308 and still was not as strong as the Remington 700 with front locking lugs.

Don't get me wrong, the Enfield rifle was my favorite milsurp rifle and used by many, many countries. But it was a outdated design that was kept in service by the British and Commonwealth Nations for monetary reasons and not its strength.

Remington made our Model 1917 the British P14 converted to 30-06, after the war this rifle became the model 30 and evolved into the Remington 700 and a very strong action.
 
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Don't get me wrong, the Enfield rifle was my favorite milsurp rifle and used by many, many countries. But it was a outdated design that was kept in service by the British and Commonwealth Nations for monetary reasons and not its strength.

Strength is only one way to measure the value of a firearm. They didn't need a stronger action for .303 British so it didn't really matter. In fact it is interesting that pretty much all the later bolt action designs (MAS 36, Madsen M47) were rear locking.
 
Thank you to everyone who has responded. From what I can figure from the responses it sounds like the No4 is going to be the stronger action so it looks like I'll be buy a pint for my buddy
 
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