MOA 223 black rifle exist?

LMT's have a very good reputation in the accuracy department.

I know, they're restricted, I had to throw this out there.
 
Moe said:
Wow! A lot of help in just minuts! Well to add to the discussion I do use a 16 power scope and one will be mounted on this future rifle. I do use a bipod. I do reload. And I have a wall of medals that say I can shoot (well... at least when I was young). Budget? I don't care what I spend as long as I get quality for the $

Moe
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A bipod can kill your accuracy if the barrel is not free-floating, ask this to any Swiss Arms Green Rifle or AR15 shooter.
The XCR has a massive rail handguard on which to fasten a bipod, the barrel is almost free-floating, the trigger is excellent and it is heavy barrelled.

With this rifle, an Harris bipod and a good 50mm scope, I can shot better than 1 MOA but only with some specific ammo (Federal Gold Match 68gr does not do it). I can't do it with a good Leopold hunting scope or with open sights.

Interestingly 6.8SPC semi rifles seem to be more accurate than 223 semi rifles.
Hodgdon Reloading Manual 2011 features an article were many many varmint rifle loaded with Benchmark powder were tested and the most accurate varmint rifle was a DPMS 6.8 SPC rifle at 0.4 MOA!

Alex
 
Just out of interest, what frame of reference are people using when they refer to a/their/someone's sub MOA rifle?

I mean, a flintlock pistol will eventually produce a 3 shot sub MOA group at 100 yards if you shoot it enough. Would anyone consider it a sub MOA gun?

Benchrest shooters shoot 3 shot groups from their sub sub MOA rifles. However, we are not talking about benchrest guns here, but essentially guns that are expected to produce good strings of say 10 to 20 shots if you are shooting CMP type competitions.

Would say, 5 consecutive, 5 shot groups, or better still, 10 consecutive, 10 shot groups be a better frame of reference for Black Rifles?

That a least would weed out the one group wonders that claim their (insert favourite rifle here) is a sub MOA gun, when it clearly is not.

I know some other forums are moving in this direction when discussing accuracy. What says the collective CGN brain trust?

Regards.

Mark
 
MWL said:
Just out of interest, what frame of reference are people using when they refer to a/their/someone's sub MOA rifle?

I mean, a flintlock pistol will eventually produce a 3 shot sub MOA group at 100 yards if you shoot it enough. Would anyone consider it a sub MOA gun?

Benchrest shooters shoot 3 shot groups from their sub sub MOA rifles. However, we are not talking about benchrest guns here, but essentially guns that are expected to produce good strings of say 10 to 20 shots if you are shooting CMP type competitions.

Would say, 5 consecutive, 5 shot groups, or better still, 10 consecutive, 10 shot groups be a better frame of reference for Black Rifles?

That a least would weed out the one group wonders that claim their (insert favourite rifle here) is a sub MOA gun, when it clearly is not.

I know some other forums are moving in this direction when discussing accuracy. What says the collective CGN brain trust?

Regards.

Mark
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Benchrest shooters traditionally use aggregate of 5 grouips of 5 shots.
This is a very good standard since many rifles need to be cleaned every 10 to 20 shots to produce top accuracy.
Shooting more groups is just wasting ammo and more shots per groups will only multiply the groups size by a fixed factor (1.3 I think).

My XCR-L can do that with at least one type of ammo at 100m if I do my part. As a comparision, my bolt action varmint rifle produces groups of 1/2 MOA at 100m with the same riflescope.
I've worked very hard at trying to get 1/4 MOA groups with my bolt-action but I've never even got close to that.

Alex
 
6.8 well unfortunately that caliber would be very seasonable where I would use this rifle. In NB the limit is under .230 for varmits outside of deer or bear season. 223 would also be best for me as I have a passion for loading that round and love the low recoil ( I can't shoot much with recoil as the shoulder is done in )

mini 14 I had one of those once when I was a kid back in the 80's... kids don't make good decisions do they?

Moe
 
MWL said:
Just out of interest, what frame of reference are people using when they refer to a/their/someone's sub MOA rifle?

I mean, a flintlock pistol will eventually produce a 3 shot sub MOA group at 100 yards if you shoot it enough. Would anyone consider it a sub MOA gun?

Benchrest shooters shoot 3 shot groups from their sub sub MOA rifles. However, we are not talking about benchrest guns here, but essentially guns that are expected to produce good strings of say 10 to 20 shots if you are shooting CMP type competitions.

Would say, 5 consecutive, 5 shot groups, or better still, 10 consecutive, 10 shot groups be a better frame of reference for Black Rifles?

That a least would weed out the one group wonders that claim their (insert favourite rifle here) is a sub MOA gun, when it clearly is not.

I know some other forums are moving in this direction when discussing accuracy. What says the collective CGN brain trust?

Regards.

Mark
Click to expand...

Well, for the Swiss Arms, they will consistently shoot sub MOA with decent ammo. The factory test target for mine was around 4", so you figure that it was about 1.3 MOA with factory ammo. I've even shot groups of 0.6 MOA with mine and hand loads (5 shot), and I know other members have done similar things with theirs. I don't get groups that small on a regular basis (I do regularly get sub MOA groups or close to it though), but I think the main limitation for that is the shooter (me), the optics (fixed 4x ACOG) and the rest (magazine rest or resting the forearm in front of the magazine on sand bags).
 
Moe, The swiss arms are good, it does take work to get sub moa ammo. I would take a real close look at the Benelli MR1, around these parts they seem to be the coyote truck gun most guys are using with great success. For your application I do not see any advantage going with a Swiss arms over a Benelli. Swiss are 1/10 twist and you can find some 1/7 twist which shooth heavier ammo better than the 1/10.

I shoot with a chap who has a Benelli and he consistently shoots 1/2 moa with factory ammo. THe only SAN i have seen do that is a CQB with the 8 inch barrel (restricted of course)

I am a huge SAN fan own a few, and do not own a Benelli, fwiw.
 
From what I read on the black rifle forum, everybodys rifle shoots 1 ragged hole. Swiss Arms, Tavor, XCR,, ect....I have never heard one owner not shoot a 10 shot ragged hole. Cooper arms has nothing on any black rifle. :D
 
scott_r said:
From what I read on the black rifle forum, everybodys rifle shoots 1 ragged hole. Swiss Arms, Tavor, XCR,, ect....I have never heard one owner not shoot a 10 shot ragged hole. Cooper arms has nothing on any black rifle. :D
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Swiss Arms factory accuracy test
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
All rifles are test fired for accuracy and function prior to leaving the factory at the manufacturer's underground 300 m test range. Random new rifles out of production were tested of a machine rest. In a 24 single shot string starting with a cold weapon and using GP 90 ammunition, the 50% windage and elevation dispersion of any individual weapon must have been within an 11 cm (4.3 in) group at 300 m, the 50% windage and elevation dispersion must have averaged 7 cm (2.8 in).

So all Swiss Arms Green Rifles must fire 24 shot of millitary GP90 ammo in a 22cm W x 11cm H rectangle at 300m.
This is the absolute minimum for a rifle which is has been produced in the 100,000s.
Just imagine the accuracy of a good one using match ammo not one which barely passed the minimum requirements above using millitary ammo.

Alex
 
AlexF said:
Swiss Arms factory accuracy test
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
All rifles are test fired for accuracy and function prior to leaving the factory at the manufacturer's underground 300 m test range. Random new rifles out of production were tested of a machine rest. In a 24 single shot string starting with a cold weapon and using GP 90 ammunition, the 50% windage and elevation dispersion of any individual weapon must have been within an 11 cm (4.3 in) group at 300 m, the 50% windage and elevation dispersion must have averaged 7 cm (2.8 in).

So all Swiss Arms Green Rifles must fire 24 shot of millitary GP90 ammo in a 22cm W x 11cm H rectangle at 300m.
This is the absolute minimum for a rifle which is has been produced in the 100,000s.
Just imagine the accuracy of a good one using match ammo not one which barely passed the minimum requirements above using millitary ammo.

Alex
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If was to buy another black rifle, the XCR was somewhat of a dissapointment, the Swiss Arms would be it. Ive never shot one but would like to take one on a varmint/predator hunt sometime :D
 
I was once making some special purpose AR-15 45rg ammo for a customer. One the requirements was minimum muzzle fash.

To test the ammo i took the flash supressor off a 9" AR and shot that with a 24X scope on it.

At 200 yards it grouped just under 2". This was an ordinary AR with an ordinary barrel. The forend was rested on a sand bag. I had no idea it could shoot so well.
 
Ganderite said:
I was once making some special purpose AR-15 45rg ammo for a customer. One the requirements was minimum muzzle fash.

To test the ammo i took the flash supressor off a 9" AR and shot that with a 24X scope on it.

At 200 yards it grouped just under 2". This was an ordinary AR with an ordinary barrel. The forend was rested on a sand bag. I had no idea it could shoot so well.
Click to expand...

some barrels just need a bit of pressure and they shoot really good. I knew and old farmer that had a piece of a match book wedged in his Model 70 bbl. Would shoot really good till he pulled that paper out. Wedged it back in and was popping gophers heads off at 200 yards.
 
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