MOA to MRAD

If you want to be proficient in shooting, better get good at BOTH moa and mrad.

all the PRS matches I have been to, the MDs try and give accurate distances. There were some pretty big errors in the past but now, most range AFTER the targets are in place.

For centerfire, the difference is moot...I know many shooters in CF get worried about this but given what most are shooting, small variations are captured by the target and are way smaller then the wobble of most shooters. I would be more concerned about the wind changes then a few yards of error to target in a stage.

For rimfire, small errors in range can be problematic BUT we are also so much closer so ranging the targets or other stuff can be done to verify distances.

I really don't think there is a shooter that will range a target in their scope while on the clock.... but whatever works for them

Jerry
 
many ways to skin the cat, if you're brain is wired in inches/yards and okay to work in 1/4's and you're only really into hunting up to about 600 then moa may make sense, for those in the elrh game seem to like the base 10 stuff, metric only people it would make sense also, figure out what you're most likely to be reduced to mentally when instinct likely to take over and set up that way (for hunting) imo, for the target sports it doesn't matter what you use, for hunting it does, you need it to be instinctual for shtf, I grew up with inches/yards and hybrid metric on speed and also measures so find myself naturally converting one to the other anyway and have remember so many of the conversions to get that understood in my head in the units I'm wired to, not sure how long it would take to re-institutionalize to the other system

most of us are dudes and we don't refer to our weiners in centimetres or mrad (1.7 mils lol) so we tend to look at misses or targets in references to something we actually handle in our own hands multiple times a day, centimetres may not be a bad way to discuss the weiner though...would sound more impressive

one of those things, if you do too much practice in a certain thing but it isn't 'hunt' focused to your own instinctual...it could be the wrong kind of practice, regardless how much you do it, less of the right kind of practice is better, some argue that you'll be a better killer on game if you do competitive shooting, I'll never buy into that, you may become a better shot and where the point of diminishing returns is maybe an argue point of what is required and also where actual game is actually killed in

I still think a competitive shooting discipline that focuses where 98% of long range is take, 0-600 and speed to shot is the game and life-size targets like 3-d archery but for animals is the formula to use for hunting focused shooting sports and gear. This prs stuff has gone way too far away from all that and is just a shooting sport, 200 rounds a match, small metal targets you can't really reference against like you can animals, sighters the norm etc. There still isn't a shooting sport focused on actual hunting. Solo, no team, 20 rounds per round (box of shells), no sighters, no partner calling data, and kill zone flappers, weight limits, factory class and custom class (reloading and built rifles vs off the shelf everything class) etc. I think you'd see totally different gear, prep and set up for this than the prs game.

But hey, manufacturers are making a ton of money selling all this PRS related gear etc. The latest 'trend'. Rifle 3-d is what would be best for the hunting stuff.
 
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I work most exclusively in imperial measurements every day. Transitioning to MRad scopes took one range trip, it's just that easy, and now I don't want to be bothered with MOA.


Just to correct some misinformation- 1. There are no sighters in PRS. Every shot needs to score.
2. the NRL Hunter Series is very Hunter focused. Blind stages, find & range your targets on the clock. Weight limits/classes.
 
how many shots per stage at same target? is spotting your own misses important? why? sighters

ok then, here's where it falls on it's face, our brains are spatially and visually wired, so when we go on auto-pilot (which is what we do on game, actual hunting) and if we miss the animal, assuming long shot, we are not using the reticle to measure the miss and find the right hash mark for the next few shots, we can reference the distance on the scene against the animal and move the main reticle to where it needs to be held to send another...poo happens when you start playing long range hunter so that reticle and all that practice being done in prs goes completely out the window if you mess up the first shot on a critter, prs is not teaching you to reference against a critter...it's teaching you to measure misses with reticles against little white squares...which if you try on animals will slow you down as you're going away from how our brains work

and so the ffp mil is the way to go for elrh shooting, there's a very tiny percentage of guys who cross that over to actual hunting and when polled most of them have about a 600 yard cap on animals, the reasons are several but you can see that a few of them are .5 to 75 seconds tof along with ~20" of wind with an important tag in your pocket on a live animal is where the buck stops for most, coincidentally if you look at those numbers and apply to 3d archery and actual archery kills at distance you'll see the same trend, there are natural field limits on game in hunting that make this basically law, you will find moderate amount of consistent killers to 450 and few to 600 and after that it's very minimal...only so much you can do with ~300 fps arrows and ~24-3200 fps bullets, 50-70 yards or 450-600 yards sort of thing

from there you figure out the simplest boiled down system for hunting, or cross your target gear over to that and hope for the best, you can skin the cat many ways and there are guys who will kill to 600 with sporting rifles and very boiled down systems quicker and better than prs rockstars, so you don't have to spend the money and jump on the trend if hunting is your actual primary, by all means if you like to shoot a ton then giver, try not to get too much of the wrong kind of practice for hunting though as it may mess you up out there on game if trying to apply the not so best strategies, methods, gear to the task at hand

elevation to 600 is the easy part, dial, sfp several hash reticle...there isn't a lot of data to account for to go from mpbr to 600 so this can really be simplified and minimized for pure hunter set up, this can be argued a bit but really if you set that up for middle of your elevation ranges and temps then you can actually use one data set for this and be done, assuming you hunt in your home state at similar areas but I have a 5000' range from prairies to mountain tops and I would only be out 1-2 clicks max at 600 up high on a sheep vs down low on antelope so no need for anything but a basic rangefinder and if it does true horizontal perfect

most guys will stop playing on game around 20" of wind, that could be 35 kmh at 400 or 10 kmh at 650 but you get the idea so lets just take an above aver bc bullet at .5 at a moderate velocity like 2600 (.308 running 168's) and look at the only wind you really need to know from 300-600 or 4 data points (300, 400, 500, 600) (4", 8", 12" 18" of 10 kmh drift)

INCHES of drift at 10 kmh
4"
8"
12" (500) (3/4 sec tof lands 550 in this example)
18" (600)
20" (this at 650 yards in this example and .94 seconds tof - this is pushing the upper limits of long range hunting right here and beyond mosts abilities to do consistently afield on game)

MOA at 10 kmh as compared to the above
1.2
1.7
2.2
2.7
3.0 (650 - 20")

MIL at 10 kmh as above
0.4
0.5
0.6
0.8
0.9 (650 - 20")

hold inches for first one and here's why, our brains are wired spatially and visually and the animals are big and we know their size, not little white squares only as big as a kill zone, we can see an 18" hold on an animal, a reticle trying to show me 1.7 moa or 0.4 mil will not be looked at again once shooting starts and will just get in the way of seeing the spatial gap I need to see when shtf or you shoot till it's down

mil reticles on windage are they marked every 0.1 mil? what's the norm? moa/inches sure look to make more sense for lrh than mils

so what about odd yardages and middling wind calls, well most prepared to go past mpbr are paying attention to the wind while afield, if day hunt they look it up on weather while driving out to spot then combine the expected winds with in field observations, so with inches lets say you call wind at 15 kmh (you're not likely going to call it 12 so you're only going to be working in 5's on the kmh) and say you've got a ram at 450 yards, your 400 yard wind is 8" and 500 yard is 12" for 10 kmh, 10" is 450 but you've got 50% more wind so 5 more inches for 15" wind hold...this is the longest part of your solution...super simple quick math from 4 data points, you've already dialled to the 4.5 of your speed dial turret or dialled up your scope to max mag and know where to gap or hold hash marks for 450...the wind is the last call, I'll be doing it this way rather than trying to convert or play with moa or mils because after the first shot it doesn't matter anymore, you go auto reference with no measures from there...just a bunch of unnecessary noise in your scope when it doesn't need to be there for shot one anyway, you can math the wind out so easily from 4 base inches hold points, I'd argue easier than mil or moa...unless you're trying to use a ballistics computer built into your rangefinder that does that all for you...personally not going to rely on that just to get from mbpr to 600 and inside 20" of wind....too much crap that can do way more than is required, I don't take the kitchen sink up the mountain with me, only what's necessary...same can apply here

now, if you travel all over and hunt way more than 5000' elevation gaps you may want the computer in your rangefinder instead of your head? and or, with multiple guns or whatever then this need not apply, if you're into prs or other shooting sports then giver, anything will work that you practice with, endless gear tech and puters, if you think you're going to be an elrh hunter...well good luck, start trying that out and you'll soon see why most talented guys won't go much past 600...the laws I mentioned above, field situations, live animals, one tag...it's a different level of serious than static target you get to shoot at multiple times(sighters) and it doesn't move ;)

so if you're serious about hunting, grab some gongs, set up as simple as you can and put your own field time playing to 600, learning wind, your rig and you won't need to think for one second about all the target stuff, then practice your craft calling coyotes and wherever you can consistently kill them too you can add about a 1/3 to that for you big game max, you can ice fish all winter, chase coyotes too...not shoot year round burning up barrels and reloading your face off, heck you can do everything in lrh off the shelf including ammo and really have a diverse life

this is minimalist approach to lrh, everything else moves you further into fack around and find out territory ;)
 
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might have gone too far here with Mulefan and his .22 desires lol...

what you going to be doing with that .22 Sir?

for seriously high volume shooting long term than you can do with a .22 I will say I'd be going the reticle way, dialling for that doesn't make sense, my rangefinder will be staying in yards though and I won't want to get too conditioned to something that would take me away from big game institutions and natural units wiring so I wouldn't be trying to move to a completely different unit of measure than what I know will be instinct with for hunting...that's my final tip lol

I can use mil-dot reticles and have used for high volume gopher culling, sighters are no problem, not using the actual mils as measures but just dots on the reticle to reference against. If you're going full prs set up .22 for competition to 300 yards type stuff I dunno...if for fun and you big game hunt as well...could be an issue, if you adopt new system and like it may as well do your big game rig up same then, otherwise I'd rather mimic my big game rig with my rimfire to become more proficient that way if its just for high volume practice to keep me sharp for transition to big game?
 
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