Some interesting reading here:
http://www.tbnewswatch.com/News/367104/Moose_population_reaching_critical_point:_Sportsmans_Alliance_
http://www.tbnewswatch.com/News/367104/Moose_population_reaching_critical_point:_Sportsmans_Alliance_
Moose in Ontario
- Thread starter Armafix
- Start date
Personally I think the MNR should limit taking bulls under a certain rack size,like in Alaska,this way we will still see moose but will only take big,mature bulls after they've breed in late fall.Also keep tabs on the predators of course and calves should be controlled like does,with draws,till things pick up. Just my opinion.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Black bear predation is the issue. Bring back the spring bear hunt.
Moose Masher
CGN Regular
- Location
- Oak Hammok Manitoba
Reducing or eliminating the calf harvest seems like it might not be a bad idea.
Funny. I was on my first hunt this year. I hooked up with some guys who have hunted the same area up north for around 40 years. I was dubious when I heard about where we were going, as I have heard from a couple other hunters at my Gun club that there was nothing up there. My new hunting gang has taken a moose from the same area in all but 4 of those years...including this year. Maybe you need to find a new spot???
JungleCat7
CGN Regular
You Hit it right on the head. I remember Tony Bubnick top moose man for the MNR in Ontario telling us that one of the major downfalls of the moose was the black bear population he even urged us to kill any bears that we seen. Legally of course. Then the politicians stepped in and caved to the antis and the spring bear hunt was gone. Now we have the exact problem that Tony predicted.
Bob
Not to mention aboriginal over-harvesting of game under the guise of "subsistence" hunting. Some hunters I know were offered moose for their tags, if they were willing to offer up some financial consideration of course. Seems that several truckloads of aboriginal hunters had blazed through the area and shot everything they saw about a week before the season opened. One of the guys called the MNR and the OPP and were told to without proof there was no legal recourse. Too afraid of another Oka?
A friend of mine works for the mnr. He has been in north western ont for a few years doing various studies. He said our moose pop has been declining since the spring bear hunt stopped. Bears killing calves was the biggest problem. That what he thought.
The calf tags need to be limited. We cant control the bears killing calves but we can control the hunters. I love hunting but i think there needs to be a drastic change in ontario the way the moose are managed in ontario or i fear that my kids wont have the opportunity to hunt them.
In moat jurisdictions there is 80% calf mortality before April of their first year... the idea behind calf tags is to focus the harvest on animals that won't make it anyway... it is sound biology... there is a lot more going on than simply the calf harvest. Major issues are, First Nations harvest, predation (wolves, bears), encroachment of whitetail deer (brainworm), severe jurisdictional weather, improper and/or ineffective winter counts, and hunter harvest... probably the least impactful is the hunter harvest...
I lived near Thunder Bay for 15 years up until 2 years ago. The moose numbers around my place started dropping as soon as the deer got a good foothold and numbers started to go up, more deer meant brainworm, ticks and more predators. The number of wolves and coyotes I trapped in the last 3 years in my area was crazy, they were everywhere and the deer were still doing well.
I am an Aboriginal subsistence hunter and what I find interesting about the article is no mention of discussing the moose management with the native leadership. I help hunt for and feed a number of families and I can tell you it is much nicer to harvest our meat when their is a healthy and close moose population. Forest licenses are being negotiated and given to native run entities, mining discussions have been taking place, albeit with little progress, fish and wildlife management should be part of that relationship between MNR and First Nations. The right for natives to hunt isn't going to go away and can't be rescinded by MNR or Ontario, so their only option is to work with the communities and its hunters. Unfortunately MNR has developed a very hostile relationship between their COs and native hunters/fishermen which will take years to go away, if it ever does.
As a forester I can also tell you that forest management objectives have also changed focus. In the 80s the focus was on making moose habitat to drive up the moose population, smaller cutovers that created lots of edge between cover and browse, some of you may remember the old checker board patterns. Now the focus is on mimicking natural disturbance and managing for Caribou habitat, which is the historic main ungulate species for the boreal region in Ontario, which is now a protected species under the Endangered Species act. Ideal moose habitat is still being created but not at the same level as before. The MNR also wants forest managers to renew the forest back to its historic natural state, which was more conifer, managing for conifer means controlling hardwood vegetation (spraying herbicide), which is also moose browse, no browse no moose.
In my opinion, given all of the restrictions on managing wildlife and forest cover, I think folks will have to get use to a lower moose population. MNR could still better manage the deer population which will help with predators, but I doubt they will as it would have to be an extermination type of hunt.
I am an Aboriginal subsistence hunter and what I find interesting about the article is no mention of discussing the moose management with the native leadership. I help hunt for and feed a number of families and I can tell you it is much nicer to harvest our meat when their is a healthy and close moose population. Forest licenses are being negotiated and given to native run entities, mining discussions have been taking place, albeit with little progress, fish and wildlife management should be part of that relationship between MNR and First Nations. The right for natives to hunt isn't going to go away and can't be rescinded by MNR or Ontario, so their only option is to work with the communities and its hunters. Unfortunately MNR has developed a very hostile relationship between their COs and native hunters/fishermen which will take years to go away, if it ever does.
As a forester I can also tell you that forest management objectives have also changed focus. In the 80s the focus was on making moose habitat to drive up the moose population, smaller cutovers that created lots of edge between cover and browse, some of you may remember the old checker board patterns. Now the focus is on mimicking natural disturbance and managing for Caribou habitat, which is the historic main ungulate species for the boreal region in Ontario, which is now a protected species under the Endangered Species act. Ideal moose habitat is still being created but not at the same level as before. The MNR also wants forest managers to renew the forest back to its historic natural state, which was more conifer, managing for conifer means controlling hardwood vegetation (spraying herbicide), which is also moose browse, no browse no moose.
In my opinion, given all of the restrictions on managing wildlife and forest cover, I think folks will have to get use to a lower moose population. MNR could still better manage the deer population which will help with predators, but I doubt they will as it would have to be an extermination type of hunt.
hammering hank
CGN Regular
- Location
- Barrie north of
Ive been seeing moose below the trent for easily over a decade now with numbers getting better every year to the point im wondering if some day in the near future hopefully we may see an archery hunt in one of the 76 wmu's yet i highly doubt it. Furthest south ive seen them is to the north side of little lake in barrie a cow and calf on more then one occasion.
This is my take on the hunting of calves. I think that when the lottery system for shooting of adult moose was brought into play, calves were thrown in to pacify any hunter who did not get an adult tag. Let me explain. Each hunter has to buy a licence to apply for an adult tag. If the hunter is not successfull in the draw he does not get a refund of his money.There would be an outcry from hunters that did not receive a tag after spending money on a licence. I think the management realized this and decided to let these hunters shoot calves because the thinking was hunters would not see many calves at all. This way licence revenue would not be affected. Well there are many, many calves being shot (in my area anyway). The MNR is less than accurate in their policy on this. I think it all boils down to loss of revenue. What we need is a system that allows the hunter to apply for an adult tag then buy the licence not the other way around.
I agree with "applying, then buying..." As it is, hunters are forced into a lottery...
But, you are incorrect on the impetus behind the focus on calf hunting... it was not an afterthought to pacify hunters unsuccessful in the tag allocation process. I was part of the talks when the discussions were taking place on amending the Ontario moose hunt. At the time, the most accurate data available on calf mortality showed that in some WMU's the mortality rate of calves in their first year was as high as 90% and in others as low as 40%... province wide the estimate was 70-80% first year mortality... MNR biologists recommended focusing the harvest on calves in the months preceding peak mortality (Sept-Dec). The primary idea of this strategy was to better manage the "real" (the ones that would still be alive) breeding population for the following year... this was done through adult (breeder) tag allocation. The correlating principle, was to allow as many Ontario hunters as possible to take to the field "without" significant adverse effect on the moose population.
The poster above who says that because other jurisdictions (provinces) don't use this "focus on calves" strategy, shows that it is defunct, is over simplifying a complex issue. Every jurisdiction is unique in the factors affecting wildlife management... this is why provinces are divided in to zones or WMU's, to better regulate what is happening in specific, unique areas... the same goes for provinces. JMO, but I do not believe that the "focus on calves" strategy is significantly impacting Ontario's moose population.
