Mosin Accuracy with and without bayonet?

westrifle

westrifle

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Hello Everyone,
I am not questioning anyone but this question bothering me.
I hear from different people that Mosin Nagant is not as accurate without bayonet or it changes grouping.
My question is how is it possible I am sure there is a lot of knowledgeable people that can put this theory to rest or prove it.
I just do not believe it .
Again I am looking for scientific explanation.


So what makes rifle accurate?(any rifle for that matter)
I know back in Russia they make sure that barrel is free floating and that improves accuracy. the way you can do it is:
Adding a cork shim between the stock and barrel, under at least the front band. So that the barrel has some room to vibrate freely, on at least part of its length. Yes, this is supposed to help accuracy for most grunt-grade models.
 
Never found it to be less accurate, the POI changes when the bayo is mounted on a 91/30 or folded on an M44. I know my M44s swing a tad high and left with the spike folded (not 12" tho) and the 91/30 creeps up down a couple inches when the spike is on. I understood that was why the sights were armory zeroed with the spike extended/mounted.

Each rifle is different. each shooter is different. Lots of room to interpret those sights regardless of where the bayo is at...
 
The bayonet changes the harmonics of the barrel.

Having it folded to the side would result in a different POI, but not necessarily less accuracy.

They are sighted in at the factory with the bayonet fully extended, so if you want to shoot with it folded or removed you might have to adjust sights.

No big deal.
 
westrifle said:
Hello Everyone,
I am not questioning anyone but this question bothering me.
I hear from different people that Mosin Nagant is not as accurate without bayonet or it changes grouping.
My question is how is it possible I am sure there is a lot of knowledgeable people that can put this theory to rest or prove it.
I just do not believe it .
Again I am looking for scientific explanation.

Maybe "Mythbusters", can do a piece on it.:)
Click to expand...
 
trebor2880 said:
westrifle said:
Hello Everyone,
I am not questioning anyone but this question bothering me.
I hear from different people that Mosin Nagant is not as accurate without bayonet or it changes grouping.
My question is how is it possible I am sure there is a lot of knowledgeable people that can put this theory to rest or prove it.
I just do not believe it .
Again I am looking for scientific explanation.

Maybe "Mythbusters", can do a piece on it.:)
Click to expand...

That what I was thinking too. LOL
Good one !!!
Click to expand...
 
The Mosin series of rifle (the original 1891 right up to the "modernized" 1944 carbine) were all originally factory sighted/zero'd with the bayonets extended. This was due to the Russian/Soviet requirement that bayonets were to be fixed at all times during combat.

I have seen many period pictures however of Soviet troops advancing into combat without bayonets. Mind you during the trying times of Barbarossa Im sure they had more important things on their minds.

Some rifles will shoot tighter groups with the bayonet, others will shoot larger groups with the bayonet on. Stock condition, bore condition and of course bayonet fit will play a large role in this. A few of my rilfes shoot better with the bayonet, but on others the bayonets throw point of aim off considerably.

I am going to the range Sunday and will provide a range report/pictorial on different results with different rifles if it helps :D
 
westrifle said:
Hello Everyone,
I am not questioning anyone but this question bothering me.
I hear from different people that Mosin Nagant is not as accurate without bayonet or it changes grouping.
My question is how is it possible I am sure there is a lot of knowledgeable people that can put this theory to rest or prove it.
I just do not believe it .
Again I am looking for scientific explanation.


So what makes rifle accurate?(any rifle for that matter)
I know back in Russia they make sure that barrel is free floating and that improves accuracy. the way you can do it is:
Adding a cork shim between the stock and barrel, under at least the front band. So that the barrel has some room to vibrate freely, on at least part of its length. Yes, this is supposed to help accuracy for most grunt-grade models.
Click to expand...

A rifle barrel when fired will flex and vibrate like a tuning fork, there are many ways to control barrel vibrations and thus accuracy. The bayonet can alter the way the barrel vibrates and effect POI and accuracy or group size.

barrelvibes.jpg


On some rifles the barrel has steps cut in the barrel at the vibration node points to control barrel vibration and thus accuracy.

IMGP0991.jpg


IMGP0993.jpg


The Remington 700 and the Lee Enfield rifle use up pressure at the fore end tip of the stock to dampen and control barrel vibrations.

RSbedding_0303D.jpg


RSbedding_0303E.jpg


The .22 rim fire rifle below has two barrel tuners attached to the barrel to control barrel vibrations and accuracy.

barreltuner.jpg


Please note the one hole bug size groups fired from this highly tuned rifle.

barreltuner-a.jpg


Another rifle with an adjustable weight mounted to the end of the barrel and like a bayont will change the POI and group size. ;)

barreltuner-b.jpg


My home made Paul Hogan Magnum Roo light and barrel tuner. :rolleyes:

roo-2.jpg


Taunting Koala bears and Roos can be hard to see and hit at night without the right equipment. :eek:

roo-1.jpg
 
Ok, I'll admit, I've seen a lot of pics posted by Bigedp51 over the past several years, and despite this significant training, these last two pictures just about made me loose control of all my sphincters, including the pyloric and iliocecal. Good work my friend,

Lou
 
Its my belief that, as said above, "Fundamental Vibration" in the barrel is fixed, shock waves travel the same speed from one end of the barrel to the other. Having that said, the optimum time for the bullet to exit the barrel is when the shock wave is at the opposite side of the barrel. We cannot change the speed of the shock wave, but we can change the speed of the bullet to ensure the shock wave is at the other end during time of exit, meaning : Optimum Charge Weight (OCW).



All that said and out of the way, the manner in which the barrel vibrates may change with the mass of the bayonet on or off, however the shock wave still moves back and forth and has a best time and worst time to leave the barrel. This is IMO why the group size generally stays the same, but the POI has changed.


In my shooting and testing loads, which by the way I only measure iron sight rifle groups at 50 yards, I find that POI changes with and without the bayonet, but the groups generally stay the same. As for my East German M44, the POI does not alter in any measurable difference with the bayonet extended, folded, or completely removed.



I believe barrel floating is a major factor in controlling groups size, however, I find to be just as significant in previously used milsurp rifles is proper crowning at the muzzle.


WIth the several Mosin 91/30 rifles that I have, they shoot 6 to 12 inches high at 100 yards with the bayonet removed, but very similar POI.
 
louthepou said:
Ok, I'll admit, I've seen a lot of pics posted by Bigedp51 over the past several years, and despite this significant training, these last two pictures just about made me loose control of all my sphincters, including the pyloric and iliocecal. Good work my friend,

Lou
Click to expand...

Lou

You worry too much, I always thought my humor was as dry as a popcorn fart.................:popCorn:
 
The bad news is: You can't cork a bat to make it better.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode83

The good news is: You can cork a mosin to make it better!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu63.htm

I've also tested the bayonet fixed versus removed effects on my 91/30. Removing the bayonet moves my groups right several inches at 50 yards. Group sizes were about the same though.
 
My 91/30's all shoot high and right without bayo too. I raised the front sight post on my first 91/30 and pushed the sight quite a bit to the right. Now it's spot on at 100 yds. I raised the post excessively high and use the rear sight to control elevation.
mosin front sight 002.jpg
I've encountered 91/30 front sights that are different and won't allow me to do this mod. I ordered some of these bad boys from Josh Smith and will be using them soon.
http://www.smith-sights.com/
 

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I've encountered 91/30 front sights that are different and won't allow me to do this mod. I ordered some of these bad boys from Josh Smith and will be using them soon.
http://www.smith-sights.com/
Click to expand...


you should post your findings when you've had a chance to test them out good. I've always just used a piece of heat shrink tubing with good results, just not as permanent as one would like them to be.
 
So got my Polish M44 out to the range today, and with the bayonet folded it shot consistent groups 8 inches left of the bull.

After figuring it all out and adjusting the sights she was shooting into a 2 inch bull at 50m.

About as accurate as irons get for me, as I haven't had too much practice.
 
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