MRAD vs MOA

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So I have begun saving up for a scope purchase, most likely (like %99 sure) will be a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP with the EBR-2C reticle. Here is the question MOA turrets/reticle or MRAD?


Any one have some great pros and cons, or even know of a helpful youtube video. I have found this but I find my self getting lost.

http://www.primalrights.com/articles/rifle-sighting-systems/rifle-sighting-systems-part-1-moa-iphy
 
If I were starting again I would get MRAD.

It seems that the industry is moving that way. Some scopes don't even have a MOA option.

To bad I'm invested to deep in MOA.
 
It depends on your individual wants and needs. If you shoot competition with numerous spotter/friends that speak MOA, maybe that one is better for you.

Either is simple to learn if you aren't already wired the other way in a previous life. To me the MRAD is what I own and I'm used to. It was easy to learn and fits nicely with a 10 based metric system even though I am from a non metric country(US).

One can use either type and holdover their "memorized dope", "shoot the splash", dial in a "range", or dial the come ups and wind. It depends on how you wish to use the scope....hunting, competition, casual target shooting, how comfortable you are in metric/non metric measurements, how quick you need or wish to shoot AND whether you require a precise hit or only a hit.

Usually MOA turret clicks are finer than MRAD, so that may a consideration for you. Some MOA are 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 inch per click at 100 yds. 1 MRAD is 10 cm @100 meters so a 1/10th click would be .393 inches @ 100 meters.
 
I mentally measure things in yards (from years of shooting 3D & Field Archery which is done in yards), but prefer my math in multiples of 10's. I plan on target shooting with this scope, not for competition (at this time). My ranges would be from 50m to 700m. This could be hunting, but I won't be walking and stalking with this rifle.
 
The way that I read it, if you are older (like me) and comfortable using imperial, go with MOA. Otherwise, MRAD.
Trying not to hijack. I have a question: FFP or SFP? Does the reticle become "too big" at higher powers with the FFP?
 
I am not older (only 27), just been in the trades (Cooking, welding & electrical [yeah I know weird combination]), and used a little of everything, but mostly inches & feet.

If a reticle became to big, imo, would that not mean more precise? Unless of course the actual reticle is so large is covers the target.
 
I am not older (only 27), just been in the trades (Cooking, welding & electrical [yeah I know weird combination]), and used a little of everything, but mostly inches & feet.

If a reticle became to big, imo, would that not mean more precise? Unless of course the actual reticle is so large is covers the target.
No, not weird at all. I'm in the trades as well and use imperial mostly.
I suppose a FFP sight could be problematic at higher magnification. May become less precise? That is why I asked the question.
 
No, not weird at all. I'm in the trades as well and use imperial mostly.
I suppose a FFP sight could be problematic at higher magnification. May become less precise? That is why I asked the question.

I currently have an older Vortex Crossfire I with milldots, they are only accurate milldots at full magnification (and most of the shooting I have done with that scope, full magnification is too much), my crosshairs are quite wide, if it had FFP those crosshairs would look to be a cm or wider. However, my friend just picked up a Crossfire II and I looked through it and it had extremely fine crosshairs, and if it had FFP those crosshairs would be no thicker then mine are normally. So I would assume a manufacturer would take this into account when making their FFP equipped scopes



On the subject of MOA vs MRAD, I did find these sources of information which help explain things further.

h ttp://www.primalrights.com/articles/rifle-sighting-systems/rifle-sighting-systems-part-1-moa-iphy

And this video

[youtube]S5AGsHSIsVo&list=WL&index=18[/youtube]
 
I have never had an issue with FFP getting too big, plus they now make different sized FFP for the public consumption.

Generally if one thinks in inch/foot/yards MOA is more natural. And vice for mm/cm/meter and MRAD.

The advantage to some with MRAD/MRAD is using the metric system and dividing the space between mildots by 10. 10 based metric and 10 divisions between dots works well with the math.

Most people can easily learn either and for most, there is no real advantage of one over the other for public use.
 
The long and the short of it is that mil and FFP are the standard for tactical scopes. MOA FFP scopes were only created due to consumer demand, by consumers that don't know how to use an FFP scope. They wanted MOA because they incorrectly relate it to inches and incorrectly assume that they need to use the metric system with a mil scope. 99% of knowledgeable users all go with mil. It's pretty apparent when you look at the Precision Rifle Series Stats.

There is no standardization with MOA. Some scopes that are marked MOA are really IPHY. Some have an MOA reticle with IPHY turrets. And, there is no standardization in MOA reticles. Some have 1 MOA major ticks, some have 2 MOA major ticks, some have 3 MOA major ticks, others have 5 MOA major ticks. MOA is a broken system that has no advantage whatsoever in a tactical scope. Mil reticles will always have 1 mil major ticks in high power scopes.

MOA and IPHY are two different units. MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards, not 1". Small difference right? Well, you're not dialing 1 MOA to get to 1000 yards, your dialing more like 40 MOA, and that 0.047" difference gets multiplied by 40, and that gets multiplied again by 10.

40 MOA @ 1000 yards = 40 x 1.047" x 10 = 418.8"
40 IPHY @ 1000 yards = 40 x 1" x 10 = 400"

People shooting on square ranges ignore the difference. They can because they're shooting at an 8' target board, have sighting shots and have someone putting big orange dots where their bullet hits. If you're doing any kind of practical shooting (hunting or a tactical match), those first two shots are going to be your only shots. Mix up MOA and IPHY in your ballistic calculator and that's a miss. Because you're not firing enough shots to center a group, the finer MOA adjustment vs. mil is meaningless.

Thinking about things in inches or cm and relating them to the size of your target is a technique that is used on square ranges. It's a very poor technique to use in field/tactical shooting where distances aren't evenly divisible by 100 (they are often not known with certainty) and targets aren't scaled so that the math works out nicely. If the target isn't the size you think it is (in real life it seldom is), your estimated size of the miss is going to be wrong. And if you ranged the target with your reticle, your range will also be wrong because the target size you used to calculate it was wrong (it can also be wrong with a rangefinder if you picked up something in front or in back of your target instead of your target). So, you're calculating a correction using an incorrect estimate of the miss and/or an incorrect distance. And you stand a good chance of messing up the math, especially under stress. The reticle will accurately tell you what the miss is even if you got the ranging wrong. It doesn't care about the target's size or its shape or what distance it's at. Doesn't matter what the distance is.

There is no reason to ever think about how big your click is with an FFP scope. Someone who teaches this doesn't know how to use an FFP scope. The mil in your reticle is the same as the mil on the turrets. Whatever you measure with your reticle can be put directly into your turrets and whatever you dial on your turret can be held over/off with the reticle.

1 mil = 1 mil at 100 yards
1 mil = 1 mil at 200 yards
1 mil = 1 mil at 300 yards
.
.
.
1 mil = 1 mil at 1000 yards

Its an angle, it corrects itself for distance. The reticle is a ruler that is right in front of your nose that is in the same units as your turret. How many inches or cm your click is doesn't matter. People who know how to use an FFP scope NEVER need to think about how big their click is at whatever distance. It's irrelevant. They don't think about it, they just measure with the reticle. It's MORE accurate than thinking about inches and doing math.

There is also the fact that things like leads on movers have constant mil values, but a different inch values for each distance. You hold the same mil value for a 3 MPH target at 156 yards as you do for a 3MPH target at 439 yards. The inch leads will be different at every distance, even for targets of the same speed.
 
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No, not weird at all. I'm in the trades as well and use imperial mostly.
I suppose a FFP sight could be problematic at higher magnification. May become less precise? That is why I asked the question.

Do some reading folks!!! FFP reticles REMAIN THE SAME SIZE IN RELATION TO THE TARGET AT ALL MAGNIFICATIONS. They do not "grow" or become "too large" when viewed at higher powers.

TW25B
 
The FFP reticle is always precise, this is fundamental. It's on the same focal plane as the target, meaning it gets magnified with the target. It will always stay 1:1 with the target. It's proportion to the target will always be the same, and so will its thickness relative to the target. Covering more or less of the target is actually a characteristic of the SFP scope.

It's pretty intuitive if you think about it. If you cut your magnification in half, your target will appear half the size. If your reticle appears half the size, it's covering the same amount that it was before. If the reticle appears the same size, it now covers twice the amount of target that it did before.

The SFP reticle covers the least amount of target at its highest magnification. The FFP reticle always covers the same amount. In tactical scopes, FFP and SFP reticles are available in the same thicknesses at the higest magnification. In tactical scopes, FFP reticles are not any thicker than SFP reticles. They do offer much finer reticles in target scopes, but these don't work well in field use. If the reticle is too fine, it gets lost on dark backgrounds. This is why hunting scopes also have thicker reticles than target scopes.
 
Do some reading folks!!! FFP reticles REMAIN THE SAME SIZE IN RELATION TO THE TARGET AT ALL MAGNIFICATIONS. They do not "grow" or become "too large" when viewed at higher powers.

TW25B
I said exactly that in post #14. Thanks for your input above.
 
FYI, The Sightron SIII FFP LRMOA/MOA scopes have true 1/4 min clicks. The application of this scope or the MH/MH would be identical in the field.

so MOA/MOA or MH/MH is entirely up to the end users tastes and which unit measure they want to use.

Tactical shooters definitely lean towards chatting in MRADs. All target shooters converse in MOA as that is how their targets are scaled.

They both work and when used properly, end up with the same results - bullets on target.

Eenie meenie...

Jerry
 
Anything can be made to work, its just a matter of how efficient you want to be. If you're shooting at your own leisure, it doesn't matter. But when you're trying to be as efficient as possible under the clock... There is a reason that the shooters in US matches have overwhelmingly went a certain way, and the opposite way one would expect a country where people "think in inches" to go. I'm sorry, but it isn't just preference. Reality on the ground after more than a decade of those matches shows shooters using one system consistently outperforming the ones using the other system. And, everyone was using the other system a decade ago. If there is no difference, why the mass migration? Why change from something you know if there is no advantage? Why stick with it after you try if there is no advantage?
 
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