My first attempt at black powder shooting, Winchester 1876

Win 38-55

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I have an old Winchester Model 1876 in .45-60, made in 1882, that I figured would be a good candidate for my very first venture into black powder shooting. Up to now, I've been shooting only smokeless loads in this old classic. At lunch hour yesterday, I loaded 5 original 45-60 cases with 4.3 cc of FFg, a polywad, and then a 300 grain cast bullet. After dumping the black powder in the case, using the biggest Lee scoop I had, I tapped the case on the reloading bench for a while to settle the powder. I then shoved a polywad down on the powder and pressed down a bit. Then I installed the bullet (lubed with Ox-Yoke, 'premium, all-natural lube') and crimped the bullet in against the polywad.

First, I decided to shoot at a 50 yard target, because I had no idea how the black powder loads would group, and wanted to make sure they were on the paper. I dropped the rear sight two notches and then fired off 5 smokeless rounds just to see where they were hitting on the target. I was a little hasty here since I was excited to shoot my black powder loads, so my group might have been a little tighter had I sighted more carefully, but I got a 5-shot group of 1 & 7/16" and four of the shots grouped at 7/8", center to center. I was holding the forearm of the old '76 with my hand and forearm resting on a sandbag. The load was 22 grains of IMR SR4759 under a 321 grain cast bullet with gas check, giving me an average velocity of 1,337 fps with an E.S. of 58 (original black powder factory rounds had a published velocity of 1,315 fps). A photo of this smokeless group is shown below.

Smokeless.jpg


Then it was time to shoot my 5 black powder loads. I got a horizontal spread of only 3/4" but a vertical spread of 2 & 9/16". I am thinking that this vertical spread is due to inconsistency in my loading (it was pretty crude and fast). I think this is born out by the Chronograph results. Keeping in mind that the original .45-60 cartridge had a muzzle velocity of 1,315 fps. My loads gave the following:

1,346
1,305
1,320
1,295
1,268

That is an E.S. of 78 fps, quite a spread compared to some fellows who have an E.S. in the single digits.

There were only 4 holes in the target. so there was a serious flyer in the bunch, but this target was taped to an even larger piece of cardboard that was about 20" x 24", and there was no hole in that either. I took another look at the hole in the bulls eye, as it looks a bit different from the rest ... a bit more torn up and one side of the hole looks like it might have the grey smudge of a second bullet. It is possible that the 'flyer' went into almost the same hole as the bulls eye. Hard to believe, but it is also very difficult to believe a flyer could be bad enough to miss a 20" x 24" paper (with no sign of the bullet hole in the surrounding plywood either). I know for a fact that bead was on the bulls eye when the gun went off ... I'd have to be hanging upside down by one toe, swinging in a gale force wind, with someone whacking me with a rolled up newspaper, before I'd miss a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 50 yards.

I'm thinking the vertical spread is largely due to the E.S. in velocity, which in turn is due to inconsistent loading practice. For my next loads, I will make sure I got exactly the same amount of powder in each case, and exactly the same amount of compression (so far as I am able). I expect the group to be tighter.

Below is the photo of the black powder group. Both groups were at 50 yards. Unfortunately, I will be on the road for the next two weeks, so it will be a while before I can get back to the range.[:(] (Note: I accidentally wrote the measurements on upside down, so the group actually is slightly to the left of the center just like the smokeless group.)

Black-group.jpg
 
Win 38-55
As I am sure you already know black powder shooting is a liitle different than smokeless. One of the biggest problems is fouling. As each subsequent shot is made with not effort to control fouling then things are going to change. Black powder cartridge rifle silhoutte (BPCR) shooting is what I am most familiar with, and in that event you have enough time to "blow tube" between shots; some even give the barrel a swab. The blow tube doesn't control fouling, but if used correctly it produces a repeatable soft fouling that allows improved accuracy. There has been a great deal of experimenting with lubes, and I think a lube such as SPG is one of the better ones. I am not saying what you are using is not going to work but I think there are better choices. An easy way to get some compression in a repeatable manner is use a 30 inch drop tube with a funnel attached. Powder is slowly trickled into the funnel and into the case. I found an aluminum shaft from my archery days works perfectly. What I usually do is after picking my bullet, casting mix (ie 1 in 30 tin/lead), primer and lube I fill the case so that the wad and bullet are slightly compressing the powder and shoot this load for group size. I should add here that I use the drop tube as well as a 'compression die'. Then I start adding powder in small increments keeping the OAL constant, in effect increasing compression, until groups get smaller or compression hits about .30 which is quite a lot. I will also play with different wad material such as milk cartons, veggie wads, and poly wads. Of course, you must clean your barrel between groups.
Some excellent reading is by Paul Matthews "Forty years with the 45-70" and "Loading the black poweder rifle cartridge". Also BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Venturino and Garbe.
If Win 38-55 is who I am thinking of (we just spoke about this very same subject yesterday) I would be happy to lend books, bullets, lube and dies.
 
Thank you very much, boomer, for that info. I have a lot to learn. I do have Matthews book and have enjoyed it very much. I'm still scratching my head over whether I spoke with you yesterday on this. I have discussed this on another, levergun forum, where I have the same handle, but my real first name is Kirk.

Looks like I've got some work to do to get my group size down, but that is part of the enjoyment of shooting.
 
Win 38-55,
Amazing! I was just talking to a guy yesterday about this very same situation so I was sure I knew you! Sorry about that.
I think that fouling will be your biggest problem, and cleaning a lever gun! I use single shots so they are much easier to clean. I would go for a load that groups well with 3 shots (a hunting situation). You can always clean a gun in the field with a pull through if you get 3 shots off. Type of bullet used is contricted because of lever gun, and because of a crimped load. In BPCR we use mainly slip fit so as be more consistent, as well as seating the bullet out to touch the rifling. Another thing to check is the bullet diameter matches your rifle. Some of the older guns varied by quite a bit so you may need a mould that drops a bigger (or smaller) dia bullet.
Good luck.
 
Like boomer, I would recommend a soft lube like SPG or in my case I use a 50-50 mixture of bees wax and bear grease. The vertical stringing, I would bet dollars to donuts is caused by either not using a drop tube and or not lightly compressing the charge. Finally while the lateral grouping seems fine, just a reminder that most BP rifles seem to prefer very soft bullets.

cheers mooncoon
 
I didn't compress the powder much, maybe 1/32". I'll also try to find a better lube.

Boomer, no problem! I certainly appreciate your offer if I was that guy you talked to, but I live in central Ontario.

The '76 wasn't hard to clean, and I dropped the deprimed spent casings in a drinking bottle with a soap/water mix. I had a ball shooting those bp rounds and look forward to doing more of it with more of my old bp leverguns (I have 3 old leverguns that were all made for bp cartridges).
 
I have been shooting BP cartridge for over 20yrs and found you must use drop tube and be very carefull when loading very thing must be sme very time or you will get not the best groups.
don brattly
 
Murf,
No I never shot a Winney. I had a 32-40 in a Marlin that I shot and my buddy shot a Winney for a couple of years until we got him straightend around to use a rollig block remington.
 
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