My first SxS
- Thread starter Thad
- Start date
Wow nice looking gun. Congrats.
I hope to be educated, but quite frankly I suspect that you are enamoured with the older ones for price, exclusivity and general snobish reasons. I tentatively call bulls**t with the option to be schooled at a time of your choosing.
When you say new guns, do you mean new entrants into the SxS markets or do you mean newly manufactured guns by everyone?
Explain please. What has changed with the modern guns that would make them handle so differently from the older ones.For a modern gun, very nice! You might like to find an AH Fox, Sterlingworth, Utica or even a good solid English gun. They handle so much different than the new guns.
Regards,
Henry
I hope to be educated, but quite frankly I suspect that you are enamoured with the older ones for price, exclusivity and general snobish reasons. I tentatively call bulls**t with the option to be schooled at a time of your choosing.
When you say new guns, do you mean new entrants into the SxS markets or do you mean newly manufactured guns by everyone?
Drvrage, not to speak for Henry (God forbid!) but an awful lot has changed between "old" SxS's and their modern counterparts - some for the good, some not.
The heart of any good SxS is the barrels. In older guns, SxS barrels are carefully struck thin walled tubes of chopper lump or dovetail lump construction. In newer guns, such as the Ringneck pictured above, the tubes are thick(er) walled and belled at the muzzle to accommodate removable choke tubes. They are also of monobloc(k) construction. All of this affects the balance of the gun. The centre of balance of the barrel assembly is now farther forward, giving the whole gun a higher polar moment of inertia.
Building barrels the "old" way is more labour intensive and therefore expensive. It does, however, give better handling. Many new guns are built with chopper lump barrels, but their price now takes them out of the mass market. Older guns such as a Webley & Scott give you the inherent superior balance without the price tag. The trade off is in ammunition - no steel shot capabilities and short chambers mean you cannot just waltz down to CanTire for all your ammo needs.
There are differences in the frames and locks as well, even if we restrict ourselves to boxlocks. Metal thickness, polishing, hand fitting, the type of springs used and their construction, and niceties such as bushed firing pins come to mind. For instance the Ringneck uses mousetrap style springs to power the sears, vs. V springs which provide a crisper feel.
Fit and finish, while certainly acceptable in modern guns, usually cannot compete with an older gun made by hand. There are many exceptions of course, and a cheap gun was always just a cheap gun.
The bottom line is that for around the price of a new Ringneck one can find examples of older boxlocks that are superior in balance and handling, and fit and finish when compared to guns of newer construction. What you give up is modern ammo compatibility, warranty and availability (you have to hunt for such guns). Would I council someone to look for such a gun for their first SxS? No. For their second, yes.
For the dedicated SxS shooter, balance and handling are of primary importance. The search for the gun and the ammo to feed it is worth the effort.
Don't get me wrong, I own and shoot modern SxS's and have a Bobwhite (cousin to the Ringneck) that I like. None of them have the feel and handling of an old Army & Navy boxlock non-ejector from the early 1920's, though. There is much more to it than price, exclusivity and general snobishness.
Sharptail
The heart of any good SxS is the barrels. In older guns, SxS barrels are carefully struck thin walled tubes of chopper lump or dovetail lump construction. In newer guns, such as the Ringneck pictured above, the tubes are thick(er) walled and belled at the muzzle to accommodate removable choke tubes. They are also of monobloc(k) construction. All of this affects the balance of the gun. The centre of balance of the barrel assembly is now farther forward, giving the whole gun a higher polar moment of inertia.
Building barrels the "old" way is more labour intensive and therefore expensive. It does, however, give better handling. Many new guns are built with chopper lump barrels, but their price now takes them out of the mass market. Older guns such as a Webley & Scott give you the inherent superior balance without the price tag. The trade off is in ammunition - no steel shot capabilities and short chambers mean you cannot just waltz down to CanTire for all your ammo needs.
There are differences in the frames and locks as well, even if we restrict ourselves to boxlocks. Metal thickness, polishing, hand fitting, the type of springs used and their construction, and niceties such as bushed firing pins come to mind. For instance the Ringneck uses mousetrap style springs to power the sears, vs. V springs which provide a crisper feel.
Fit and finish, while certainly acceptable in modern guns, usually cannot compete with an older gun made by hand. There are many exceptions of course, and a cheap gun was always just a cheap gun.
The bottom line is that for around the price of a new Ringneck one can find examples of older boxlocks that are superior in balance and handling, and fit and finish when compared to guns of newer construction. What you give up is modern ammo compatibility, warranty and availability (you have to hunt for such guns). Would I council someone to look for such a gun for their first SxS? No. For their second, yes.
For the dedicated SxS shooter, balance and handling are of primary importance. The search for the gun and the ammo to feed it is worth the effort.
Don't get me wrong, I own and shoot modern SxS's and have a Bobwhite (cousin to the Ringneck) that I like. None of them have the feel and handling of an old Army & Navy boxlock non-ejector from the early 1920's, though. There is much more to it than price, exclusivity and general snobishness.
Sharptail
MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Sharptail, that should be stickied. Excellent.
PS is the gun a 12 bore?
PS is the gun a 12 bore?
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Very nice!!!
You called bulls**t, and you called wrong... that's the problem with going ballistic on a subject with which you aren't familiar - you stand the chance of looking like a goof.
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Don't be too hard on Drvrage. He asked a legitimate question, and it is not much of a stretch to think that Hnachaj could be being snobbish. I hardly think that Drvrage "went ballistic", it sounds to me like he was seeking information.
There are differences in handling between SxS's, but how many people on this board are interested in what those differences are, or what they mean to the shooter? When we find someone asking those questions we should try to respond to them.
My answer to Drvrage's question was hasty and incomplete. I would prefer to see those individuals knowledgeable on the subject expand and elucidate the topic.
To Thad: I think you made a fine choice for your first SxS. Sorry if I hijacked your thread a little bit.
Sharptail
There are differences in handling between SxS's, but how many people on this board are interested in what those differences are, or what they mean to the shooter? When we find someone asking those questions we should try to respond to them.
My answer to Drvrage's question was hasty and incomplete. I would prefer to see those individuals knowledgeable on the subject expand and elucidate the topic.
To Thad: I think you made a fine choice for your first SxS. Sorry if I hijacked your thread a little bit.
Sharptail
You are very diplomatic, Mr. Sharptail, and your explanation of older quality shotguns was very eloquent. But diplomacy aside, drvrage called the OP a liar, and that is no way to ask a legitimate question. A man would aplogize.
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pisces-guy
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- West Kelowna, B.C.
Thad, one more small detail, a lot of the older shotguns mentioned, chiefly those from Britain, had their stock offset slightly. This was believed to make the gun handle better and more naturally, and they're definitely nice to shoot. You might consider one for your next SXS...that's a nice looking shotgun you've got there, by the way...
Thanks guys.
I have looked into some more SxS and the ones mentioned here, have to say they are too much $ for my budget. I am looking for one ranging from $1500 to $3000 and having a hard time finding any. Beretta Silverhawk is nice but still a bit too much. Franchi Highlander looks good..
I have looked into some more SxS and the ones mentioned here, have to say they are too much $ for my budget. I am looking for one ranging from $1500 to $3000 and having a hard time finding any. Beretta Silverhawk is nice but still a bit too much. Franchi Highlander looks good..
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Sharptail. you are so right! The offset is to make the gun fit properly to most of us. A shotgun is not to be used as a rifle with the beads, the stock needs to be fitted so that it shoot where you look.
Please visit one of the best in NA: www.chrisbatha@aol.com Chris is a master in getting a gun to fit and shoot where you look!
Besides, he is a very enjoyable character!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, I was lucky unoff to pick up some silver with my Cleaborough & Johnson London gun at the recent Orvis Cup SxS Prelim:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/hnachaj/Shooting/IMG_4014.jpg
Regards,
Henry
BTW: the new regular SxS don't have ANY of the sweet handling of a nice SxS. It is called the momentum of inertia and can be evaluated scientifically. The feel of most and possibly all low priced SxS is like swinning a pick axe compared to some of the finner new guns and most of the older SxS! It has nothing to do with snobbery, and everything to do with the momentum of inertia!
Please visit one of the best in NA: www.chrisbatha@aol.com Chris is a master in getting a gun to fit and shoot where you look!
Besides, he is a very enjoyable character!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, I was lucky unoff to pick up some silver with my Cleaborough & Johnson London gun at the recent Orvis Cup SxS Prelim:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/hnachaj/Shooting/IMG_4014.jpg
Regards,
Henry
BTW: the new regular SxS don't have ANY of the sweet handling of a nice SxS. It is called the momentum of inertia and can be evaluated scientifically. The feel of most and possibly all low priced SxS is like swinning a pick axe compared to some of the finner new guns and most of the older SxS! It has nothing to do with snobbery, and everything to do with the momentum of inertia!
Awesome looking SxS! I like SxS thx to watching Elmer Fudd.
I have a 1930's Belgian and I thought it had an awesome refinishing job done on it. So good that I thought the stock was not original. But the store owner that sold it to me said it was decent refinish, but not great.
I have a 1930's Belgian and I thought it had an awesome refinishing job done on it. So good that I thought the stock was not original. But the store owner that sold it to me said it was decent refinish, but not great.
