My Norinco 1911C
- Thread starter Strickland
- Start date
Enjoy shooting it!! better get into reloading to feed the beast!
When the sight dots get dull, use a very small drill bit between your fingers and clean out the old paint which seems to suck up the dirt will cleaning. Use a single bristle from a paint brush dip it into some white model paint and gently deposit a couple of drops into each hole.
When the sight dots get dull, use a very small drill bit between your fingers and clean out the old paint which seems to suck up the dirt will cleaning. Use a single bristle from a paint brush dip it into some white model paint and gently deposit a couple of drops into each hole.
Norinco 1911
Norinco firearms are a very good buy for the money..granted, they would not stand up to continued competitive shooting (thousands of rounds a month), but for the "average" joe, they get the job done.
The steel used is really "hard" and it takes a few thousand rounds to get wear-rid of the rather evident tool marks on the frame and in the barrel. If they could only improve the finishing on the trigger sear parts and/or trigger assembly unit..out of the box some of them have a pretty rough trigger pull.
As far as the sights are concerned, there are many after-market parts that are a perfect fit for these "replicas"
Good shooting with your new toy !
Norinco firearms are a very good buy for the money..granted, they would not stand up to continued competitive shooting (thousands of rounds a month), but for the "average" joe, they get the job done.
The steel used is really "hard" and it takes a few thousand rounds to get wear-rid of the rather evident tool marks on the frame and in the barrel. If they could only improve the finishing on the trigger sear parts and/or trigger assembly unit..out of the box some of them have a pretty rough trigger pull.
As far as the sights are concerned, there are many after-market parts that are a perfect fit for these "replicas"
Good shooting with your new toy !
Smoothbore
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Norinco firearms are a very good buy for the money..granted, they would not stand up to continued competitive shooting (thousands of rounds a month), but for the "average" joe, they get the job done.
The steel used is really "hard" and it takes a few thousand rounds to get wear-rid of the rather evident tool marks on the frame and in the barrel. If they could only improve the finishing on the trigger sear parts and/or trigger assembly unit..out of the box some of them have a pretty rough trigger pull.
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This thinking has been proven to be wrong. They should hold up just fine.
Read it here: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=145099
There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.
"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.
Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)
In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.
Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).
*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.
Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!
I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow
Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.
So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!
5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.
All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "
I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.
The steel used is really "hard" and it takes a few thousand rounds to get wear-rid of the rather evident tool marks on the frame and in the barrel. If they could only improve the finishing on the trigger sear parts and/or trigger assembly unit..out of the box some of them have a pretty rough trigger pull.
-----------------------------------------------
This thinking has been proven to be wrong. They should hold up just fine.
Read it here: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=145099
There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.
"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.
Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)
In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.
Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).
*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.
Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!
I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow
Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.
So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!
5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.
All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "
I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.
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Smoothbore, Thank you for that! I was just going to Question that comment and you provided a very good reply. I'm gonna have a Nork 1911 very soon here so that was greatSmoothbore said:Norinco firearms are a very good buy for the money..granted, they would not stand up to continued competitive shooting (thousands of rounds a month)
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This thinking has been proven to be wrong. They should hold up just fine.
When will any of you learn ??
Don't buy ONE!
Buy TWO of them! :LOL
Now if only we could get more of the NP29's (9mm single stack) in stock, feeding the Norc's would be lots cheaper.
Nice job with that Commander. I like that factory trigger in you picture. Great looking rubber grips, too. The Kommies are starting to get more things 'right'.
Cheers all,
Barney
Don't buy ONE!
Buy TWO of them! :LOL
Now if only we could get more of the NP29's (9mm single stack) in stock, feeding the Norc's would be lots cheaper.
Nice job with that Commander. I like that factory trigger in you picture. Great looking rubber grips, too. The Kommies are starting to get more things 'right'.
Cheers all,
Barney
To: Paulinski
Please note anything other than the original IS a copy or a replica.This doesn't mean they're not as good or better. I stated Norinco's were a VERY GOOD BUY for the money. Only time will tell for the balance of my opinion(s).
I have the NP-40 and the observations came from my particular pistol.
Please note anything other than the original IS a copy or a replica.This doesn't mean they're not as good or better. I stated Norinco's were a VERY GOOD BUY for the money. Only time will tell for the balance of my opinion(s).
I have the NP-40 and the observations came from my particular pistol.
Your source for Norinco 1911
From where or whom did you get that sweet looking gun?
After reading the other posts in this thread I think it's finally time for me to get one, too!
Did you get it online, or ?
From where or whom did you get that sweet looking gun?
After reading the other posts in this thread I think it's finally time for me to get one, too!
Did you get it online, or ?
Strickland said:First, many thanks for you guys help.
I got this baby yesterday.
Strickland said:
Thanks for that info, Strickland.
After I first saw the photo that you posted, I went to lever's website http://www.leverarms.com/ The photo that they have posted doesn't look like your gun.
I also went to Marstar's website http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/1911A1C.shtm and the photo that they have posted doesn't look like your gun either.
I guess that the photo's on those websites are pictures of older models.
Also noticed a huge difference in pricing - makes me wonder if I'm comparing apples to apples(?)
