My two Valmets

Claven2

Claven2

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I thought I'd show off my latest VKT, the 1942-dated M91 pictured here. I picked it up in a local shop, missing the cleaning rod, but including the wartime canvas M91 sling, for a fair price. A lucky find, actually, as nice condition Finns are getting much scarcer. It's in great shape with an excellent bore and is definitely a Continuation War vet. I was able to source an original cleaning rod from a fellow in Finland for a fair price, so it's ready to be shown.

I thought I'd picture it next to my 1942 VKT M39 for comparison purposes. After all, they are both 1942 VKTs, though the M91 has a lower serial number so was made earlier.

Both are wearing wartime stocks in nice shape.

VKTs_zpstou3ewyx.jpg
 
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real nice looking pieces...i find M91's extremely accurate and pleasure to shoot...felt recoil is next to none...but, there is no way in Hell that either one of those were Winter War Vets, as that conflict was 1939-1940....also,99.9% of 1942 Marked VKT rifles were assembled post war from 1942 dated barrels.....Both M91's & M39's..... this is common knowledge amongst Finn Collectors
 
Yeah, I meant continuation war. But I have not heard of 42 vkts being post war. B barrels usually are, but all the online sources and my few books say vkt made m91's and m39's during the war.

VKT M91s are commonly seen dated 1940, 1941, 42.

Care to point me to your source of info?

Here's a quick excerpt from MosinNagant.net:

WW2 M91 Production:

When the Soviet Union invaded Finland in 1939 starting the Winter War, the Finns had just started production of the M39 Service Rifle. The M39 was to be the new standard issue rifle to both the Finnish Army and to Civil Guard units replacing the older mixed models that were in service. The invasion stalled this production and the Finns started to manufacture the M91 yet again in 1940. This was done as it is much easier to produce a known and proven model under adverse conditions than to undergo new production of an "untested" model with all the start up problems that would be associated with it. The M91 had served Finland well in the past and it was about to serve yet again, meeting the USSR who was Finland's greatest threat.

The new M91 barrels were manufactured at VKT from 1940-1942 and Tikka from 1940-1943, when the production of the M39 and M91/30 made this production no longer necessary. The total production of barrels was in the 77,000 range.
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http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Finn-Mosin-Nagant-M91.asp

And for M39 VKT production:

VKT PRODUCTION OF M/39 BARRELED ACTIONS

VKT or Valmet also manufactured m/39 barrels from 1940 to 1944 that were shipped to the Army weapons depot number 3 (Asevarikko 3 or AV3 for short) at Kuopio for final assembly. AV3 assembled 30,300 m/39’s from 1941-1944 (48) with the VKT and Belgian made barrels (discussed below). The stocks were also reportedly produced at the AV3 depot as well as by subcontractors. Some of these sub-contracting firms were Sakara Oy utilizing the crossed cannon cartouche with an "S" inside. Other sub-contractors were V. Lindholmin Puusepäntehdas using the stock maker’s cartouche of an "L" in the circle. The final sub-contractor for the stock fabrication was done by Oy Ekwall Ab and is thought to have used the crossed cannon’s "Z" cartouche to indicate it’s production (48) The VKT m/39's run from a known low serial number of 2508 to a high of 76,470. Many of the m/39 barrels in the VKT serial number range are actually Belgian produced barrels received under contract.

The Belgian contract was placed to provide m/91 barrels and the barrels produced for this contract are marked with a capital "B" on the barrel shank between the serial number and the date. Some barrels also are marked with "Liege" proofs on the left side, which consist of a stylized "EL", and a small star followed by 7.62m/m . Many of these Belgian made m/91 barrels were modified and shortened to m/39 specifications and are serial numbered within the range of the VKT produced m/91 barrels. No reported m/39 barrels though have been marked with the Liege proofs, only the B designation- and all are dated 1942. The VKT made m/91 barrels also were modified to the m/39 specification as well. It is not known exactly why but some sources suggest that it was to supplement lagging production and supply on hand or later replacement of damaged barrels upon return for repair. VKT serial number ranges for the m/91 ran from serial number 1 in 1940 to serial number 45,700 approximately in 1942. There are many-reported m/39’s that fall within this serial number range. One such rifle, a m/39, is serial numbered 2508 with a 1940 date. VKT and Belgian barreled assemblies were shipped to AV3 for final assembly into rifles. Upon observation and measurement of barrel diameters to ascertain conversion from m/91 barrels it is apparent that production by VKT after 45,700 was exclusively of m/39 configuration.

One unusual characteristic noted on at least some of the m/39 barrels of Belgian origin is the unusual color of the metal finish. Some are noted with a "bronze" type color to a deep purple rather than the normal blue/black. This can be attributed to a few things such as the metal content containing a high nickel percentage to the temperature of the bluing solution and metal preparation prior to finishing. The answer probably lies in a combination of all three theories. The lowest reported serial number of the VKT marked m/39’s is 2508 dated 1940 and 76,227 dated 1944. The "B" barrel rifles have a serial number range of the low of 23,294 to a high of 48,978. All have 1942 dates.
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http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnish_mosin_nagantm39.asp

I've been collecting Finn mosins since 2004, and this is the first I've heard VKT guns are 99.9% post-war as you claim. Perhaps I'm wrong and welcome your directing me to some factual information.
 
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Another reference:

Doug Bowser, Rifles of the White Death (Valkoisen Kuoleman Kiväärit: A Collector's and Shooter's Guide to Finnish Military Rifles, 1918-1945, 41:

M39 wartime production:

Wartime SAKO Sk.Y. 10,588
Wartime SAKO 59,549
Wartime VKT 51,038
 
victorio said:
1940 &1941 were different story, but 1942 B & Vkt were assembled post war....just like Tikka M39's and most of 91/30
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Because you say so, or because you can point me to where someone with gravitas wrote it?

For your awareness, the idea that basically all the Finn M30's were produced post-war has been debunked. A number of them have shown up in russian imports in the last 3 years as typical russian refurbs, but with captured M30 barelled receivers.

Yes, some were post war made in all liklihood, but clearly many were not.

Here's a couple examples:

attachment.php


I spent 2 hours last night poring over books and websites and found no evidence to back up your claim that 1942 VKTs are post-war unless they are also B marked.

I respectfully suggest the ball is in your court to prove otherwise.
 
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im gonna have to start digging through my Finn literature once i have some time on my hands to pin point my source, but my understanding is that by 1942, the main focus was M39 production and while there were 1942 M91 made barrels, they were assembled post war...along with B barrels... i have 1942 VKT M91 that looks 100% brand new that isnt B marked..i bought it about 10-15 years ago from an old Finnish fellow, who got me into Finn Collecting

as far as M91/30 Tikka, im pretty positive that vast majority were assembled in 1950's
im not that computer savvy, and cant help with fancy links, as im very old school and im trying to learn to operate computers
i just spoke with a buddy of mine, who informed me that Mosin nagant.net has Tikka production numbers confirming that out of ~15000 M91/30, only about ~5000 were assembled during war
hope that helps
 
I would suggest that a great majority of Finnish mosins were refurbished post-war and many that saw combat look brand new today. It's uncommon to find Finn mosins that have never been refurbed. The Finns even issued M91's into the 1970's as part of training compulsory service recruits, and they issued M39's into the 1980's (!). Today, over 80% of all Finnish males complete a conscription. Rifles were used in field traning all that time, and were repaired and reblued as needed. Some of my hang tags show major reworks occuring in the 1970's.

I don't think a 1942 VKT looking like new today is proof the barelled action was not fired in anger during the continuation or Lapland wars. I've seen 1926 Tikka M91's that looked made yesterday, though clearly they were issued in wartime and refurbished later.

I don't know precisely when the post-war assembled M30's were built, but at least the first 5000 are documented to have been assembled before the end of the war and captured examples show they saw front line service. As recently as 5 years ago, the "experts" were adamant they were all assembled post-war. Things change as info surfaces.
 
Claven2 said:
Another reference:

Doug Bowser, Rifles of the White Death (Valkoisen Kuoleman Kiväärit: A Collector's and Shooter's Guide to Finnish Military Rifles, 1918-1945, 41:

M39 wartime production:

Wartime SAKO Sk.Y. 10,588
Wartime SAKO 59,549
Wartime VKT 51,038
Click to expand...

VKT never assembled entire rifles, they only made barrels, afaik... Same with Tikka.... Sako Made just about every Part except receivers as well as assembled "Finnish-ed" product

if memory serves me correct( keep in mind that i did this research about 10-15 years ago when i bought my 1942 VKT M91), i came across information that not only B marked but regular VKT M91's were assembled post war due to fact that Arsenal Depos AV1 and AV3 were way behind on their orders...1942 & especially 1943 were pretty rough on Finland, and with shortages of all kind, logistical nightmares ensued....thats one of the reasons u never see any 1943 VKT marked barrels on M39's or M91's..when i asked my Finn Collector buddy to explain how come some of the rifles showed heavy use and others looked brand new, his reply was some were used for training post war and others were stored brand new....seems logical
 
It wasn't too long ago that all svwMB K98k's were post war French and swjXE's didn't exist. I know nothing about Mosin Nagant's but obviously, just like in the K98k collecting world, new information is surfacing all the time that sheds new light on production and usage.

Anyway, nice rifles Claven. Interesting info and write ups in this thread as well. I once owned a M27 but sold it to fund more M98's.
 
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