Need a sounding board about a potential scope issue

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mrburns2000

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Good day,

I'm having a potential issue and I would like to make sense of the data I have before I contact Vortex for possible warranty repair.

Here's my problem variables and constants:
Rifle #1 is a Savage Mark II TR with a 25MOA(7.25MRAD) DIP rail and Vortex Razor HD Gen2 4.5-27 MRAD scope. The zero is set to the lowest value possible.
Rifle #2 is a CZ 457 MTR with a 50MOA(14.5MRAD) Area419 rail and Vortex Razor HD Gen2 4.5-27 MRAD scope (not same scope as rifle #1 but same specs). The zero is set to the lowest value possible, however the internal dial is not working great. It feels like there is sand somewhere.
I shot SK Standard+ 22LR in both rifles out of the same box/lot on the same day.

When I shoot at 50 meters with Rifle#1, i'm dialed at 14MRAD. (Looks to me that it makes sense as the maximum elevation for this scope is 33MRAD. Am I right to think this?)
When I shoot the same target with Rifle#2, i'm at Hold UNDER 7MRAD (so -7MRAD, basically shoots too high).
When I increase target distances to 75, 100, 125 and 200 meters, the drop (and associated MRAD increments) are pretty much the same for both rifles.

If I take into account the differential caused by the scope rails (25MOA(7.25MRAD) vs 50MOA(14.5MRAD)) I'm still getting a difference of 13,75MRAD between both rifles at 50M.

Why would there be a differential of 13.75MRAD between both scopes? That's a lot! What am I missing here?
My thoughts is that the scope on Rifle#2 has a messed up dial that prevents me from setting a zero as low as I should be able to, likely due to interference from debris of some sort. What do you guys think?
 
mrburns2000 said:
Why would there be a differential of 13.75MRAD between both scopes? That's a lot! What am I missing here?
My thoughts is that the scope on Rifle#2 has a messed up dial that prevents me from setting a zero as low as I should be able to, likely due to interference from debris of some sort. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Why assume there's a scope problem. There are other parts of the equation -- notably the two different rifles and the ammo.

While SK Standard Plus is not especially consistent and not necessarily a reliable basis for comparisons, the different rifles involved may bear more attention.

Scopes set up as identically as possible with differently canted rails may still not cause different rifles to produce identical or nearly identical POAs with similar ammos at the same distance. The rifles and their barrels are different. For the set up to produce similar results, the barrels/bores of each rifle must be aligned exactly the same way. With relatively inexpensive, mass produced factory rifles (even with some more expensive customs), there's no guarantee that each product is perfectly aligned. Two otherwise identical models may themselves have bores that aren't aligned in exactly the same way.

Another issue is the canted rails. They may be what the manufacturer says, but unless they are accurately measured, no one can be certain that they are indeed exactly what they are claimed to be.

In addition, for any POI comparison between two rifles/scopes to be reasonably accurate, both barrels must shoot the same ammo with very similar muzzle velocities. That's a product of each bore's characteristics, not exclusively of its length.
 
There's a 1.5" difference in barrel length, you're using two different brands of canted rails, and not every scope is going to be made exactly the same. Did you even factor in the Height Over Bore as well? That both barrel tendons may not be a perfect 90* to the action?


I think you may be reloading a little too slow and over thinking all of this.
 
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yeah, what do you mean by zero set to the lowest value?
Do you mean that the elev dial is started at lowest setting?

Pick your distance to set initial zero, whether 20m or 50m or 100m. Whatever elev setting the rifle zeros for brand x is where it zeros. Dont worry about where that is on the elev scale.
Also dont worry about what another brand rifle zeros at, especially when its a different brand and different canted rail.

and as Jahn said, you're overthinking this. Shoot and have fun. Would be interested in your findings of comparison group sizes between the 2.
 
Barrels dont point in the same direction. just zero the scope, do a tall target test, repeat on various targets at distance and if there is anything to cause concern, then have the scope looked at.

too many new shooters assume a rifle must always do X or Y... sorry to say, rifles are all individuals, even those of the same type and manf.

WRT to your immediate concern, you are assuming each bore is seeing the target the same way... obviously it isn't. So don't worry about it,

Enjoy

Jerry
 
Thanks for your advice everyone. I thought (hoped) things could be simple but you all reminded me they are not, that between two rifles (same ammo, same scope model, same day) there is still some mystery involved and things can be unpredictable. However, i'm still having a hard time to come to terms with the large amount of difference, not 1 or 2, but over 13 MRAD (a full turn of the turret is 10MRAD). I'm not ready to accept this as-is just yet and will switch the 2 identical (same make and model) scopes between rifles and try again for validation. I will be updating this post next spring (or earlier if I have the opportunity to shoot that far) and let everybody know. Thanks again for your input.

NOTE:
for those asking what I mean by "setting my zero as low as I should be able to" I mean that I want to set my zero stop at the lowest my elevation dial can go (minus 16.5MRAD)

for those telling me not to worry about it, you are missing the point. I can't hit the target at closer distance unless I aim at the dirt below (hold under). (-7 MRAD at 50M, to -3 MRAD at 125M, to 1.4 MRAD at 200M) I personally rate his issue somewhere between inconvenient and unusable for 150M or closer.
 
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mrburns2000 said:
Thanks for your advice everyone. I thought (hoped) things could be simple but you all reminded me they are not, that between two rifles (same ammo, same scope model, same day) there is still some mystery involved and things can be unpredictable. However, i'm still having a hard time to come to terms with the large amount of difference, not 1 or 2, but over 13 MRAD (a full turn of the turret is 10MRAD). I'm not ready to accept this as-is just yet and will switch the 2 identical (same make and model) scopes between rifles and try again for validation. I will be updating this post next spring (or earlier if I have the opportunity to shoot that far) and let everybody know. Thanks again for your input.

NOTE:
for those asking what I mean by "setting my zero as low as I should be able to" I mean that I want to set my zero stop at the lowest my elevation dial can go (minus 16.5MRAD)

for those telling me not to worry about it, you are missing the point. I can't hit the target at closer distance unless I aim at the dirt below (hold under). (-7 MRAD at 50M, to -3 MRAD at 125M, to 1.4 MRAD at 200M) I personally rate his issue somewhere between inconvenient and unusable for 150M or closer.
Click to expand...


Price ya pay with a 50moa rail.
 
I knew building the rifle that there was a chance I can't zero at 50M. But the math does not quite make sense to me. Dare you look into it?

If I take into account the differential caused by the scope rails (25MOA(7.25MRAD) vs 50MOA(14.5MRAD)) I'm still getting a difference of 13,75MRAD between both rifles at 50M.
 
RRH.01 said:
[/B]
Price ya pay with a 50moa rail.
Click to expand...

I knew building the rifle that there was a chance I can't zero at 50M. But the math does not quite make sense to me. Dare you look into it?

If I take into account the differential caused by the scope rails (25MOA(7.25MRAD) vs 50MOA(14.5MRAD)) I'm still getting a difference of 13,75MRAD (or 47 MOA) between both rifles at 50M.
 
What are you using for rings? If your rings have a slope to them that could be part of the problem. Easy to test though.

I’m not completely following you with what exactly all your numbers are trying to say, but to confirm what the others are saying, a bunch of other things can affect what you are doing. That said, I do understand what you’re trying to do.

Fwiw, with my CZ457 with 30 moa rail, and Nightforce 1-piece mount with a 20moa slope (14.5mil total), I am zeroed at 50m and have 25.8 Mils of elevation left. This is from an advertised 32mil scope (Apex). So if you go by straight numbers as you may expect, they don’t work out either. Works good enough for me though.
 
So I know it has been a while and I'm resurrecting an old thread, but I'm happy to share that I found my answer. The scope has an issue with the elevation dial.
So as I planned, I kept the same rail and rings on the rifle, exchanged the scope for another one similar (both same make/model Razor HD G2 4.5-27 MRAD) and went to the range. And would you know it, i was able to easily zero in at 50 meters. I even have a few clicks to spare to zero even lower on the sheet. I have since shot the rifle and it went flawlessly, every time.
I though you would like to know.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and reflect on my issue.
 
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