Need help Identifying Belgian SxS

C

coleman1495

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Hello fellow CGNs,

A friend of mine has a old double barrel shotgun that he would like to know more about. Its actually a pretty nice old girl.
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Stamped on the side it says "United Arms Factories Liege"
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Here is the proof markings under the barrel:
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It also has some hard to read stuff under the forearm:


So far I have figured that this is a Belgian gun but that's about it. Approximately how old is this gun? What is its approximate value? Can it shoot modern smokeless loads?

The markings under the forearm are nearly worn off. It says Acier Cockerill. I am guessing that is the steel manufacturer.

I think the inspectors date is an R (with a * above). I cant find the letter code indicating the date (or just don't know what I am looking for). Also it has a serial number on the receiver and barrel.

Any help would be appreciated. I must say this old gun gives my office a neat ambience.
 
Its about a 100 y/o, and I wouldn't use smokeless powder in it myself. It would be a good idea to have a gunsmith give it a quick look before you shoot it just to be safe. There were hundreds of Belgian shotguns made back then and many had whatever name you wanted inscribed on them. Most were just average farm grade guns back then, and most Ive seen are pretty well worn.
 
You have pretty much identified the gun ,its a United Arms -liege...the proofs from the top of my head are the Belgian black powder proofs ,inspectors marks,and bore /choke designations ... barrels look to laminated steel ,but you mention acier cockerill (cockerill steel) they could have a "faux " finish applied which also was not uncommon ,if bores / wall thickness are good and the gun is tight on face it should be fine to shoot with low pressure loads ,most of these older guns had 2 1/2 inch chambers so that needs to be checked out as well .(2 1/2 gamebore is available )

If you would like me to go through my books for better proof info just PM me.

Best,
Chris
 
coleman1495 said:
How does a person measure chamber length? I can insert a 3' shell into it without a problem. Would this mean I have a 2 3/4 inch chamber?
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I have measured many of my vintage shotgun chambers by taking a dowel rod close to chamber size and wrapping tape around it until it fits into the chamber quite snug. Then I push it in until it stops (don't have to force real hard). I mark it and measure. Chances are pretty good that it has short chambers unless maybe they have been lengthened at some point.
 
gunsaholic said:
I have measured many of my vintage shotgun chambers by taking a dowel rod close to chamber size and wrapping tape around it until it fits into the chamber quite snug. Then I push it in until it stops (don't have to force real hard). I mark it and measure. Chances are pretty good that it has short chambers unless maybe they have been lengthened at some point.
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Okay, using this technique I got a measurement of 3" Does this mean it has a 2 3/4 chamber? I inspected the chamber and it appears looks like it was made that way. The texture of the steel does not change. I am pretty sure its not modified.

When did they start using 2 3/4 inch chambers? Can I narrow down the date even more?
 
If you got a measurement of 3" that means it has 3" chambers and would accept 3" shells as a 3" unfired shell is only roughly 2 3/4" as it needs extra space for the shell to open. However, I suspect that perhaps you have gone a bit into the forcing cones as I highly doubt this gun has 3" chambers. 2 3/4" shells have been around for a long time but up to roughly the mid 20's they were not the norm, especially in older European guns. But it is possible the gun has 2 3/4" chambers but I highly doubt it has 3" unless, as I mentioned before, the chambers have been lengthened. If the chambers were polished after lengthening, as they should be, it might be hard to tell. However I would measure again and only insert the dowel rod until resistance is met, don't force it any further.

Regardless of chamber length, I would not shoot anything in it but low pressure 2 1/2" loads and definitely no steel. That's providing it's in safe working condition to start with.
 
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And there are old 2-1/2" guns like that out there, which have had chambers lengthened to 2-3/4. They should be checked for wall thickness. And of course most of them were not proofed, or re-proofed for smokeless powder. I can't see where most of those old guns would have the wall thickness to go to 3" safely. Not sure 3" was even avail til after WW2. And it isn't something the Euro mfgrs readily offer now, alone back then.
 
No such thing as a 3 inch shell when that was made. You measure chambers by making a chamber cast using Cerrosafe. Brownell's as I recall.
United Arms is one of the big boys. Most Belgian shotgun makers were small and there were literally hundreds of 'em.
I wouldn't attempt to shoot it at all. Damascus barrels were still being made.
 
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