Need Help Interpreting 'The Load'

[bluemike807]

I need some help interpreting the results of a recent load (or rather series) I made up, following this article by Ed Harris and his 'The Load', based on using ~13gr of Red Dot.

Calibres used were .303 British and 7.62x54R - both rifles have barrels slugged out to between .311-.312, and both have used commercial ammunition with .311 jacketed bullets and shoot pretty well with same.

For this load I was using 185 grn cast RN bullets, lubed with Lee Liquid ALOX and NOT gas checked (for one Im waiting on the delivery of my sizing die to crimp them on, and also because this load was expected to be well below 1800fps, so I decided to just give it a whirl)

For the 7.62x54R, out of a Mosin Nagant M91/30, I worked up four loads; 12, 13, 14 and 15 grains respectively, with five rounds each. (One squib as the bullet was seated improperly. Not sure how but chambering it forced the bullet back into the case - I did NOT fire it but instead removed the bullet from the case and dumped the powder.)

I wont bother posting pics of the targets as there wasnt much to speak of there. I was shooting at 50yds to get an impression as to how low it would be shooting with the 100m sight minimum.

Nothing grouped at all well, with 12gn being at the extreme bottom of the target, 13 somewhere between that and the middle, and so on to 15grn where I had to use a six o'clock hold. That said, its a vague approximation as very few went on paper. With several, there was keyholing - one so clear, it was hilarious; like when Wylie Coyote from a cartoon goes through a wall leaving a perfect impression of his shape. (Will try to post pictures of that later).

Also, I would hear what I assumed were ricochets; the range is in a forested area, with a solid earth berm at the 100m mark, no real stones to speak of. I'd say about 1/3 of the shots were followed up with a 'zing' noise in the distance.

For the .303 I loaded up a straight "the Load' series of 20 rounds, and they were all over the place, wont even both estimating group size. Again, ricochet noises.

Im very new to reloading, and I'm doing this on a budget with experimentation - I'd welcome interpretations as to what happened. I'm also not going those bullets until I can mount gas checks. The barrels were somewhat leaded - used Hoppes 9 to clean them immediately after shooting but theres alot of crud in there. Is there a better product available at non-speciality stores? (I live in a backwater area)

Thanks.

 

[xtremacanuck]

bluemike807, I'm about ready to try the exact bullets through a sporterized Enfield No4. I've gaschecked mine but will be using 5744 as powder. I'd like to compare notes with you after my wife lets me go to the club.

 

[mmattockx]

What were your bullets sized at? Leading is usually a sign of an undersized bullet and/or unsuitable lube.

If you are getting keyholing, then your rifles are not stabilizing the bullet. Either you need a lighter/shorter bullet, faster twist rifling or higher velocities. How long are the bullets? If you give me the length and twist rate I can run them through a stability calc to see if you should have issues or not.

Mark

 

[H4831]

Bullets designed for gas checks, do not usually shoot well without the gas check on, plus they have more tendancy to lead the barrel.
You can seat the gas checks by hand. Place the gas check on a smooth, hard surface and force the bullet down by hand. When loading, be sure the bullet is not seated too deep, so as to go past the shoulder, where the gc might come off.

 

[zippy_the_wonder_chimp]

hmmm...

Interested to see the results. Please keep us posted Mike.


-zip

 

[lister]

Bullets designed for gas checks, do not usually shoot well without the gas check on, plus they have more tendancy to lead the barrel.
You can seat the gas checks by hand. Place the gas check on a smooth, hard surface and force the bullet down by hand. When loading, be sure the bullet is not seated too deep, so as to go past the shoulder, where the gc might come off.

Your barrel leading could be because of no gas checks as well. Melting the ass off the bullet as it goes down the barrel.

 

[bluemike807]

Bullets designed for gas checks, do not usually shoot well without the gas check on, plus they have more tendancy to lead the barrel.
You can seat the gas checks by hand. Place the gas check on a smooth, hard surface and force the bullet down by hand. When loading, be sure the bullet is not seated too deep, so as to go past the shoulder, where the gc might come off.

Had I been able to - I would have. The ones I wound up with are made by Hornady, and apparently need to be crimped on. As mentioned, Im waiting for the sizing die to be able to do this.

I wont be firing these again until I can mount the checks, I suppose. That said, it seemed there was alot more keyholing with the Mosin.. Weird.

And what about the ricochets?

 

[ben hunchak]

IMHO..you must slug your bore or at least experiment with different diameters, as bullets that are too small will: keyhole, cause leading, and be wildly inaccurate. You must use a gas check at those velocities, it is entirely possible that your cast bullet will not drop wide enough for use at all. There are ways to get bullets to drop a little bit wider, such as using lots of Linotype, Some use alum. tape on the inside of the blocks to widen the bullet or spin bullet in mold with grinding compound. Some bores require bullets as big as .316" for any kind of accuracy with the .303.

 

[mwjones]

I tried an approximation of "the load" a couple weeks ago using 700x powder in a .308. Loaded up 9, 10, 11, and 12 grains. 9 grainers kept a 1" group at 25 yards and 3 inch at 50, with 10 11 and 12 grains shooting gradually larger group the more powder (about 5-6" with 12 grains). Now, i was shooting from a rest with a spanish mauser with irons, so take that for what it's worth (i can't see iron sights as well as i used to be able to).

Also, tried a 40gr .320 ball. Case cut a little ring of lead off when I seated them. Used 30 grains of 4895. They made a little pop with recoil lighter than a .30-30. Shot about an inch (holes touching) at 25 yards. Didn't try them at 50 as i ran out!

 

[just having some fun]

I need some help interpreting the results of a recent load (or rather series) I made up, following this article by Ed Harris and his 'The Load', based on using ~13gr of Red Dot.

Calibres used were .303 British and 7.62x54R - both rifles have barrels slugged out to between .311-.312, and both have used commercial ammunition with .311 jacketed bullets and shoot pretty well with same.

For this load I was using 185 grn cast RN bullets, lubed with Lee Liquid ALOX and NOT gas checked (for one Im waiting on the delivery of my sizing die to crimp them on, and also because this load was expected to be well below 1800fps, so I decided to just give it a whirl

For the 7.62x54R, out of a Mosin Nagant M91/30, I worked up four loads; 12, 13, 14 and 15 grains respectively, with five rounds each. (One squib as the bullet was seated improperly. Not sure how but chambering it forced the bullet back into the case - I did NOT fire it but instead removed the bullet from the case and dumped the powder.

Also, I would hear what I assumed were ricochets; the range is in a forested area, with a solid earth berm at the 100m mark, no real stones to speak of. I'd say about 1/3 of the shots were followed up with a 'zing' noise in the distance.
ricochet noises--.there was keyholing

bullets tumbuling

not fast enough --need more speed

Red dot is a Fast powder I think you need to use a different powder at least with a plain base (no GC) red dot might be ok with a GC

lubed with Lee Liquid ALOX

not the best lube with rifle bullets

One squib as the bullet was seated improperly. Not sure how but chambering it forced the bullet back into the case - I did NOT fire it but instead removed the bullet from the case and dumped the powder.

what type of crimp are you using ???? none ??? factory crimp?

The barrels were somewhat leaded - used Hoppes 9 to clean them immediately after shooting but theres alot of crud in there.

did it come out with a patch or did you have to use a brush ?

what type of lead are you using to cast your bullets ?

 

[bluemike807]

Liquid ALOX is all I have for the moment; I appreciate its limitations.

It definitely sounds like the next step is to GC them.

AS for the crimp, I think it must have been a problem with my decapping die - several of the cases for some reason had overly large mouths. Weird. Its also possible those bullets dropped abnormally small.

And for the bore - I dont have a .30 cal brush (busted the last one) so that will be the next purchase; alot of the fouling is toward the muzzle end, so presumably it is leading. I got some out with cloth patches but not alot. I'd really welcome suggestions for general cleaning - the Hoppes method I find doesnt work very well.

 

[1shot]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80558

I posted this on Castboolits showing the dramatic difference caused with/without gas checks.

 

[OEM]

Reduced loads

I've just started messing around with these reduced loads as well, for 303B as well as my 30-30. The powder I used was Bullseye, which I understand to be extremely fast. The bullet used was the venerable Lee Mould No: 90361, which incidentally was made by CE Harris too. It makes a nice 170 Gr sharp-pointed boolit. Yes, yes, I know I should not be using this mould for the 30-30, but hey, guess what, it works too, if you load em one by one.

I know the recommended load is 13 Gr of Red Dot. I was told that no gas-check was required as one would only attain speeds of 1800 fps and should be accurate up to 150 yards. Well, I didn't have Red Dot.

So, my starting load was 7 Gr Bullseye for the 303. It wasn't doing too well, hitting the bottom of the paper. The groups were not to bad though. On a whim, I tried raising the LE's sights to the 300M (or was it 200M?) mark and lo and behold, the shots were hitting centre of paper at 50M. I guess I have to experiment more. I have to say though, they were NOT going all over the place and giving me respectable groups for very little money (which is really the whole point of me doing reduced loads with Bullseye in the first place).

I'm going to work up some other loads, up to maybe a 9 Gr max for the 303 and see where it gets me. I'm also going to experiment with different bullet seating depths. I'm pretty sure all these little things make a difference. Only way to know for sure is to try it out eh.

For the 30-30, I had a little trouble with some boolits not being seated deep enough. Because of the tight throat, the boolit would not even chamber. With a light crimp, and 6.5 Gr of BE, I managed a 3-shot, 2 inch group at 25M. Not bad start, IMO, but lots of experimentation and other fun to come with this one. To be fair, this boolit is probably not meant for the 30-30. The diameter is about right, at .312, but I really only used it to test and have some fun. I'm pretty sure I will have more fun with this boolit and the 30-30 in weeks to come as I develop a nice reduced load for it.

I've also ordered the Lee "soupcan" (309-113F) as well as the 309-170 which is what I suspect your're using, and a .311 sizer.

I don't intend to use GCs for now, but to play with reduced loads for cheap fun. I don't think I've gotten leading yet and like you, all I've used is the Alox that a buddy gave me.

Why not try something less than 13...say 10 Gr and try it at 25M first to see where you're getting. Do 3-shot groups and see what you get. I'm a lousy shot, so I do all my shooting at 25M first, then 50 and finally 100, which is already over the limit of my eyesight.

What's the worst that can happen? Some leading? Pfft. That's why you bought Hoppes #9 right?