Need help proving age of Walther PP for 12.7 transfer

F

f4iguy

Member
Rating - 100%
15   0   0
Location
New Brunswick
My father has a Walther PP RFV that he is trying to transfer me as a 12.7. To us it is obvious that it is pre-1946 as the serial number dates it to 1940. The issue is that as some point in its life the "P" at the end of serial number was either ground or hammered off. It's hard to see but it is still partially there, but the P is not on the registration. The other side of slide also has "Zella Mehlis (Thur)" on it which, as far as I know, did not produce any firearms after 1946. The RFV (Reich Finance Administration) markings on the grip are consistent with other war-time PP's.

When he originally tried to transfer it to me the CFC stated it was too new and could like be transferred, I assume it is because the "P" is not on the registration and strictly going by make/model/serial # ######(no P) would put it as a post-war. He sent them some pictures and went back and forth but they said it wasn't conclusive and eventually stopped answering his emails.

Any ideas on what I can do to get this transferred? I know its in rough shape but its still a Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help!





 
Wouldn't you be able to take it to a Firearms Verifier? If they make the determination and send in the info, that should do it for your dad and you.
 
I’m going through the same process right now. Just call in the transfer and they will verify or tell you what they need. I found all the date code documentation but they are still reviewing pictures of the item and doing their own due diligence.
 
HooliganD said:
Wouldn't you be able to take it to a Firearms Verifier? If they make the determination and send in the info, that should do it for your dad and you.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is probably the next step, we have no experience with a verifier, is it someone that CFC send to your house or would you just be taking the gun to a LGS to be verfied?
 
gdawg said:
I’m going through the same process right now. Just call in the transfer and they will verify or tell you what they need. I found all the date code documentation but they are still reviewing pictures of the item and doing their own due diligence.
Click to expand...

We've done a few of them already with no issues, this one just seems to be causing problems.
 
f4iguy said:
My father has a Walther PP RFV that he is trying to transfer me as a 12.7. To us it is obvious that it is pre-1946 as the serial number dates it to 1940. The issue is that as some point in its life the "P" at the end of serial number was either ground or hammered off. It's hard to see but it is still partially there, but the P is not on the registration. The other side of slide also has "Zella Mehlis (Thur)" on it which, as far as I know, did not produce any firearms after 1946. The RFV (Reich Finance Administration) markings on the grip are consistent with other war-time PP's.

When he originally tried to transfer it to me the CFC stated it was too new and could like be transferred, I assume it is because the "P" is not on the registration and strictly going by make/model/serial # ######(no P) would put it as a post-war. He sent them some pictures and went back and forth but they said it wasn't conclusive and eventually stopped answering his emails.

Any ideas on what I can do to get this transferred? I know its in rough shape but its still a Am I missing something? Thanks in advance for your help!





Click to expand...

The current registration is utterly meaningless. Lots of registrations are wrong. The first step is to ensure it is registered properly. That will make the transfer smoother.

Has the firearm ever been verified by an approved verifier? The CFP can verify most firearms over the phone. When I transferred my last 12.6.1 handgun on a 12.7 transfer, When age of the gun was in question, the CFP agent indicated that the firearm had never been verified since initial registry in CFIS, and asked me about 30 questions to determine the exact make and model. Took about 10 minutes, on the phone and we were done. NO pictures needed. THe CFO then took about 4 weeks "investigating" which I presume was them checking the same Smith and Wesson archive to determine date of manufacture, and eventually approved the transfer.

At the end of the day, no one knows the firearms better than the manufacturer. Fortunately Walther is still around. Reach out to them, check what resources they have. Like this. http://www.tague.at/pistolen/en_index.htm?/pistolen/pages/en_waltherpp.htm

Most of those old gun makers have a technician in the shop that is a defacto historian and and help you know which marks and which pictures 100% prove when the firearm was made.

Helping to correctly identify what the firearm is and when it was made is why the FRT was created in the first place. Once it is properly described on the certificate as a pre 45 manufacture, transferring it should be a lot easier.
 
f4iguy said:
Yes, that is probably the next step, we have no experience with a verifier, is it someone that CFC send to your house or would you just be taking the gun to a LGS to be verfied?
Click to expand...
As per the RCMP:
rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/clas-eng.htm
Verifying the class of a firearm
Verification is the process of identifying a firearm and confirming its class.

The CFP coordinates a nation-wide network of trained and certified verifiers who can assist businesses and individuals. For verification information and assistance please call 1-800-731-4000 (ext. 1052) or email verifiers.network@rcmp-grc.gc.ca.

The Canadian Firearms Program has developed a comprehensive firearms identification tool called the Firearms Reference Table (FRT). Authorized users of the FRT, including domestic and international law enforcement, can access this firearms identification information through various interfaces.
 
Your Walther is 100% pre-war. Zella-Mehlis (the manufacturing facility marked on your pistol) was destroyed before the end of the war. All pre-war Walther handguns were made at Zella-Mehlis. My dad has transferred 5 Zella-Mehlis PPKs and PPs to me without issue, so I have no idea what they're thinking on that gun.

The RCMP has their own internal determination process. You are not allowed to "prove" anything from my experience. I had pretty concrete evidence my MAB Model D was manufactured during 1946, book references with serial numbers, but was rejected.
 
JaredP said:
Your Walther is 100% pre-war. Zella-Mehlis (the manufacturing facility marked on your pistol) was destroyed before the end of the war. All pre-war Walther handguns were made at Zella-Mehlis. My dad has transferred 5 Zella-Mehlis PPKs and PPs to me without issue, so I have no idea what they're thinking on that gun.

The RCMP has their own internal determination process. You are not allowed to "prove" anything from my experience. I had pretty concrete evidence my MAB Model D was manufactured during 1946, book references with serial numbers, but was rejected.
Click to expand...

Aren't 12(7) eligible guns pre-'46 (1945 and earlier)?

Auggie D
 
JaredP said:
The RCMP has their own internal determination process. You are not allowed to "prove" anything from my experience. I had pretty concrete evidence my MAB Model D was manufactured during 1946, book references with serial numbers, but was rejected.
Click to expand...

My experience as well. I described the gun, and the RCMP determined its age. Interestingly I was not called upon to prove descendancy from the owner. That they simply took my word for it. (different last names). I had three generations of birth, death and marriage (same thing) certificates ready to go, but they didn't care.
 
I am a ppk/pp collector and as other said, the main factor you gotta take into account when buying one is to check the slide for zella mehlis. This alone mean if was made pre 46.

Also once you assert this, you can check this wonderful chart to see which year your gun was made.

mkakp5.jpg


Personally the serial is strange because I can't find it in the chart. If there was a P, it would mean the gun was made in 1940.

It is possibly a defect during serial number punching. We can see there is a mark where the p should appear.

Take in mind I have also a rfv pp and there is no p and no slide serial (gun was made in 1932)

E2OCGxD.jpg


There is so many possibility and we cant know for sure because the nazi destroyed the archives documents.


Just tell the rcmp the p was improperly stamped. The zella mehlis and rfv marking should be enough to prove it was made before 1946.

I never had a problem having a 12.7 transfered to me by my dad.

Chuck
 
charlesquik said:
Also if you take an exemple from tague.at


You can see the p is poorly stamped and right where the mark are on your frame.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the pictures and the info. This is my 5th Zella-Mehlis PP/PPK that I've got as a 12.7 from my father, first one to be questioned on age, seems fairly obvious to me so I'm not sure what raised the issue. We'll keep trying and see what happens. Thanks again
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom