Hello. I have put close to 700 hundreds through my Smith & Wesson M&P R8 revolver. I wanted to have my iron sights zero'd in so I took it to the range and put shots on paper. Long story short, my shots are about 4 inches high from 10 yards. I wanted to make sure there is nothing wrong with my gun and chalk it down to operator error. Is there a way for me to get my iron sights proffesionally sighted
Need help sighting my first firearm/revovler
- Thread starter LBTRecords
- Start date
I shoot it similar to sight image 2. Perhaps I should use the style of sight image 1?
Also, at one point I was shooting it at 25 yards but it was too far for me to see exactly where I was hitting so I need to get a spotting scope or binoculars to do a proper test.
Also, at one point I was shooting it at 25 yards but it was too far for me to see exactly where I was hitting so I need to get a spotting scope or binoculars to do a proper test.
Some say lighter bullets vs heavier bullets change point of impact; others say hotter vs. softer loads. In my 9mm NZ85, I have not seen much difference. I load 127 gr. bullets with starting loads of HP38, and find that they are very accurate in my pistol; however most other people who try my ammo find they have cycling issues. The big difference with lighter loads in PPC is quicker target re-acquisition after a shot in rapid fire due to recoil reduction. From short range to 25 yards, the point of impact change is minimal; at 50, I do have to aim higher.
What happens if the hammer drops on a spent case? Load up 1 or 2 in the cylinder with the rest of the rounds live. Better yet, have someone else load so you don’t know which chamber won’t go bang when the hammer drops. If the gun sits perfectly still when you get click instead of bang, then it may be the sights. If the front sight moves on the “click,” it’s most likely something you’re doing in anticipation of the recoil. Safer to do this experiment with a semi auto because you can have someone randomly load a couple of dummy rounds or snap caps into a full mag, and hand you the mag, instead of passing a loaded revolver around.
If you determine that it's the sights, you can lower your rear sight and/or raise the front sight (unless it's a dovetail, in which case you'd need a taller front sight) - Bullseye target shooters tend to train with their sights "level and centred" just below the bottom edge of the black aiming mark (image 1), with the POI in the 10. My personal preference was (is? I don't shoot much these days) "centre hold" (image 2), but the Walther GSP rear sights wouldn't lower enough to permit that, so I crushed a .22 case with the rim cut off, drilled a hole, and screwed the front sight down on top of that as a shim (trimmed to fit, of course).
If you determine that it's the sights, you can lower your rear sight and/or raise the front sight (unless it's a dovetail, in which case you'd need a taller front sight) - Bullseye target shooters tend to train with their sights "level and centred" just below the bottom edge of the black aiming mark (image 1), with the POI in the 10. My personal preference was (is? I don't shoot much these days) "centre hold" (image 2), but the Walther GSP rear sights wouldn't lower enough to permit that, so I crushed a .22 case with the rim cut off, drilled a hole, and screwed the front sight down on top of that as a shim (trimmed to fit, of course).
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New Camper
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I shoot sighting groups usually of five with a target rifle and extend the same with pistol... six for a revolver. You'll need to find the center of a good grouping ammunition (assuming your technique is correct and only deviation is by the usual "wandering" one will get shooting offhand. Shoot using the sight image you prefer: the rear sight on your revolver is screw adjustable. The difference in elevation from 10y to 25y will be small even if you are only shooting 38special target loads.
Methods for determining operator error have already been mentioned, but if your groups are large, (ammunition choice also affects groups... verify by trying several groups of different kinds off a steady rest to completely eliminate shooter error) chances are you might need more practice. All these things sorted out, the correct fitting blade of a screwdriver is all you need to adjust that rear sight up, to raise groups those four inches.
A pair of binoculars will be more than adequate for observing groups... don't worry about spotting the group until after it is shot. I don't yet suffer from vision difficulties: 22LR holes are visible to me at 25y... at least you'll never be tempted by the urge to compensate and corrupting group size (not that such is much of a temptation...)
Appreciate the advice from everyone in the thread. I went to the range a couple of times after making this post and tried sight image 1 aiming style that Meroh posted. My shot target placement improved dramatically. Also, there was user error on my part as I was jerking the gun when I was shooting causing the trajectory of the bullet to go off. I've been practicing applying smooth pressure to the trigger as opposed to jerking it and my groupings were amazing today. I am relieved the problem is me and not the gun. Thanks again everyone
Good to hear. There are very few "musts" when it comes to shooting well, but I believe keeping a double action grip positioned relatively low in the hand is one of them. Proper trigger manipulation, as you mentioned, is essential to hitting. Repeatability of placement of the web of the hand in reference to the upper flare of a DA backstrap will bring vertically-strung groups to resemble clusters.
Dwayne
Dwayne
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Um.... the first sight picture setup is one used on serious bullseye guns. The sight picture is easier for the shooter to be very consistent with the hold. BUT.... you're technically setting the gun up to shoot high by a very set amount. And that means that the "triangle" formed by the sight line, bullet path and spots on the target where those two lines touch the paper is distance dependent. So it only works when you shoot the same targets at the same distance all the time.
Assuming you want to shoot at various distances like most of us you want to use one of the other options in the diagram. The fact that it helped you in your last session is just coincidence that it was shooting the proper distance high.
Side note. There's really only two sight picture diagrams. The first "6 o'clock" diagram and the others. The others are all the same other than the small distance from the top of the sights to the line with fiber dots or tritium dots. So maybe 2.5mm height change.
Revolvers are more sensitive to bullet weight and muzzle velocity than semi autos. And stop and consider that your R8 is set up for .357 Mag and not .38Spl. And magnum bullets are a lot faster. A little trick I used to play was "revolver roulette" where I'd load 5x.38Spl and one .357Mag. At around 15 yards the magnum round would hit about 3 inches below the group of .38's. That's the sort of difference the velocity makes.
Your sights are adjustable. Why would you think you need to get this "professionally" done? Just adjust the rear for elevation and windage to suit you.
One last revolver hint from someone that likes their revolvers. Make sure you get used to holding high on the grip. The web of your hand across the back strap should be just about stretching over the edge at the top where it curves into the hammer. With this "high hold" it will seem like you're reaching down to the trigger, and you will be. But something about the dynamics of how a S&W works with your grip and this reach angle just works. If you're holding lower on the backstrap so your trigger finger feels more normal this alone might just fix the elevation issue. But start with that and if it's still shooting wrong THEN adjust the sights a click or two at a time to bring the POA and POI to the same points.
Assuming you want to shoot at various distances like most of us you want to use one of the other options in the diagram. The fact that it helped you in your last session is just coincidence that it was shooting the proper distance high.
Side note. There's really only two sight picture diagrams. The first "6 o'clock" diagram and the others. The others are all the same other than the small distance from the top of the sights to the line with fiber dots or tritium dots. So maybe 2.5mm height change.
Revolvers are more sensitive to bullet weight and muzzle velocity than semi autos. And stop and consider that your R8 is set up for .357 Mag and not .38Spl. And magnum bullets are a lot faster. A little trick I used to play was "revolver roulette" where I'd load 5x.38Spl and one .357Mag. At around 15 yards the magnum round would hit about 3 inches below the group of .38's. That's the sort of difference the velocity makes.
Your sights are adjustable. Why would you think you need to get this "professionally" done? Just adjust the rear for elevation and windage to suit you.
One last revolver hint from someone that likes their revolvers. Make sure you get used to holding high on the grip. The web of your hand across the back strap should be just about stretching over the edge at the top where it curves into the hammer. With this "high hold" it will seem like you're reaching down to the trigger, and you will be. But something about the dynamics of how a S&W works with your grip and this reach angle just works. If you're holding lower on the backstrap so your trigger finger feels more normal this alone might just fix the elevation issue. But start with that and if it's still shooting wrong THEN adjust the sights a click or two at a time to bring the POA and POI to the same points.
