Need help to ID a rifle

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Santoneski

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This is a picture of my grandfather during the second world war. He was drafted at 18 into the Italian army and was part of an artillery unit. I was wondering what rifle he was using at the time. He's the second guy on the left. I'm assuming its a Carcano M91/38 Cavalry Carbine. if thats what it is where could i possibly find one?
thanks
 
I saw one at a local gun shop a while ago im not sure if it was the Cavalry Carbine or not tho. That sucks that ammo is expensive. Sorry Pmatuk i cant see that link, i havent been accepted yet to the EE
 
Hard to tell without being able to see the rear sight.

Original 91 Carbines had an adjustable sight, took 6,5x52.

Model 38 Carbines had a fixed sight, took 7.35x52. Most of them went to Fiinland.

Bulk of production of Model 38 Carbines took 6.5x52. Marked on rear-sight block "6.5mm".

The Carcano 6.5 cartridge is an easy one to handload, costs about the same as any other: 60 cents a shot.

Trade-Ex has the brass and bullets, everyone and his dog makes dies these days.

Italian military ammo used a .266" slug, Hornady makes a .267", but quite a number of rifles have undersize bores and work fine with standard .264" bullets. I load for mine with 4198 powder because of the short barrel: very nice. Slower powders give an incredibobble fireball and MEGA muzzle blast.

Carcanos are fun!

Good luck!
 
nick237 said:
Only one guy doesn't have a smoke lol
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And, they were a lousy army to boot - lol!! But, in defense of smoking, my late father in law smoked roll your owns for decades. He survived the Dieppe raid and was later wounded in France. He said that smoking helped relax the nerves when the Germans were shooting at you. I suspect those fellows in the photo felt the same way.
 
Wilbur1005 said:
And, they were a lousy army to boot - lol!! But, in defense of smoking, my late father in law smoked roll your owns for decades. He survived the Dieppe raid and was later wounded in France. He said that smoking helped relax the nerves when the Germans were shooting at you. I suspect those fellows in the photo felt the same way.
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I quit smoking but if there was a draft be smoking anything I could get my hands on that sounds scary dude. This is why it's bad to be the third man taking a light because by then the sniper had you in his sweet spot, by that point. Hence those nifty flame hiding lighters they invented. It's also why it's bad luck to be the third guy or more to light his cigg from the same light or match. History is awesome to bad that channel sucks now!
 
It looks like an model 1891 Moschetto carbine, actually every one of the rifles in the picture is one as you can see the unique folding bayonet. I have one and it is a very handy carbine and incredibly short (shorter than a Swede m94).

Most of the ones visible have the graduated rear sight so it would be in 6.5 Carcano and of the model 1891 Moschetto pattern. I doubt it would be 7.35 Carcano as the problems with logistics of supply would have caught up rather quickly.

All in all, a very unique photograph, you do not see pictures of the Italian soldiers and support personal during WW2. Do you know if he served in the Ethiopian campaign during 1935-1936 or perhaps in Libya during WW2 ?
 
Actually, they weren't a lousy army. Their troops fought hard and well as long as their officers were up to snuff.

As for the OPs question, I agree, it's hard to tell which model it really is. Judging from the two fellows at the top, the rear sights are the adjustable style. So it's likely they are earlier models than the Mod 38.

By the way, Mod 38 rifles were also made in 8x57. I have one made by Steyr in 7.92 x 57. It is so marked on the fixed rear sight. Easy to find ammo for but try finding the clips. The Japanese, also had several thousand Type I rifles made, which are basically Carcano actions that have been modified to have a staggered magazine well with floor plate and chambered in 6.5 Jap.

The biggest problem finding Mod 91 carbines and variants, is finding them in decent condition. There are some nice ones out there but most of them were beat to hell. That is evidence of the type of fighting they saw.

OP, that picture is very early in the war, likely pre WWII Libya or Tunisia. The solid truck tires on the left lead me to that conclusion. Their rifles are also in excellent condition. Was your grandfather part of a motorized infantry group or a truck driver???
 
Anyone who says the Italian Army was bad or worthless obviously has not read enough books or talked to enough Veterans.

SOME Italian units were pretty bad. Wouldn't YOU be pretty bad, shipped 1000 miles away to a country where everyone hates your guts and you don't even know why and you can't speak the language and you were drafted, anyway? Not exactly a morale-builder.

SOME Italian units were VERY VERY good. Check their record in North Africa some time. There are eyewitness accounts of Italians who would not leave a machinegun until the tanks they were shooting at went right OVER TOP of them. THAT is called GUTS. Ariete Division was superb. Berasglieri had only one equal, if any: the Austrian Gebirgsjager.

It's PROPAGANDA, still biting...... 70 years after it should have died.
 
One thing I can say for sure is the Carcano rifle is a good design being quite functional, easy to maintain, effective at shooting, and easy to produce.
 
A childhoods friends grandfather had the unfortunate happenstance of being assigned to the Italian force in the general vicinity of Stalingrad. He was captured wounded & out of ammo. He managed to make it back home in 1952.
 
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[/IMG] here's some more pics of him. the one is him and his best man at his wedding. he was never shipped to north africa. he was stationed in Italy and then became a runner for an officer. An then once the Allies took over and the Armistice happened he just went home had three kids and came to canada. Theres alot of propaganda in the one picture of him in his dress uniform. It shows the victory over Ethiopia and how mussolini was going to return italy back to an empire just like caesar and the roman empire. It also has the Royal family crest on there as well as pictures of the artillery. These pictures are actually postcards he sent back to his mother.
 
Wow, very impressive, thank you for sharing. If you have any more, I, as well as others I am sure, would be more than interested in seeing them.

Do you have any details on his military service (i.e. a military pass book ?). I have never seen an Italian example and I am curious how they compare to the German counter parts.
 
I find an interesting how the propaganda post card has Victor Emmanuel III on the coat of arms with Mussolini on his horse, leading the way to victory. You have to admit, it must have been potent stuff for an ordinary citizen to take it at the time.

It makes you wonder how life would be like if our government had similar propaganda though I have a hard time seeing Harper on horseback.
 
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