need help with leading

[BILLSGAME59]

Im really really new to clay and really rusty at bird hunting, so Ive picked up a shotgun ( well a few actually) and started to practice a bit. Im having good success at hitting targets at Stations 1,2,3 and missing like crazy on the 4 & 5 then better again. The problem is my leading. One piece of the puzzle I can't figure out is that when you shoot a rifle with one eye closed and looking down the barrel you are looking at a completely different location then if you had both eyes open as is practiced in shot gunning (dominant eye).
So Im left wondering is this a factor in the lead or is the lead only to do with the ballistics of the shot?

 

[s2photo]

Well tons of guys will say this is nuts, but don't lead. Mount the gun properly, check your sight alignment and then call for your clay. Focus on the target, not the barrel, not the sights. If you keep your mount proper you'll follow the target naturally with the gun. When the leading edge of the target is in sharp focus pull the trigger. Look back at the gun to see if you are lined up and you'll miss. When you focus on the target you'll be swinging, look at the gun and I gaurentee your swing will be interrupted.

Now some will say that you have to lead on 3,4 and 5. But how do you check your lead? You have to look back at the barrel and gauge the distance. That "lead" is simply making up for you interrupting your swing when you look back at the gun.

It''ll help you like crazy on 5 stand and sporting clays.

See the clay, smash the clay.

 

[Covey Ridge]

BILLSGAME59
If when you look down the barrel with both eyes open it is different than with one eye over the barrel, you have a conflict with your master eye.
Solution 1. shoot with one eye open over the barrel
or
Solution 2. learn to shoot from the other shoulder with both eyes open.
Solution 3. partially occlude your master eye
Solution 4. learn to instintivley point your gun

Lead has nothing to do with which eye is dominant. Lead is delivering your shot charge where the target is and not where the target was. Some need to see a little lead and some need to see a lot of lead and some claim to see no lead. That all depends which method you use to make the lead happen. Some targets like trap targets appear to need very little lead and others like crossing sporting targets appear to need more lead and even more or less lead when they are crossing further or closer. Truth is targets with same speed and matched with the same velocity projectiles, crossers or quartering targets need the same lead. The difference in angle makes the lead that the shooter may see look different. Add to this what the previous poster said and that is checking lead may lead to disaster. Checking lead before shot is the same as looking at the sights or gun during shot. Not good! This gets really complicated.

I would seek out qualified instruction.

 

[hnachaj]

There are 4 basic ways to hit clays as shown by nearly all instructors:
The clay is here and you shoot there and hope that one meets the other= spot shooting! Believe it or not, many pros use it on certain targets nut is not a good method.
Sustain lead, measure a distance in front of the target and squeeze the trigger. It only works at know target distances and by VERY experience shooters.
Swing through, the hunter method! Come from behind, see some space and squeeze the trigger. It works on "Instinct, is best" but only an experienced shooter use it among other methods!
Pull away" It is the British CPSCA method of shooting whereby you move the shotgun at the speed of the clay, mount on the clay and slightly pull away as you squeeze the trigger. It works at all distances as your shotgun moves at the same speed of the target. It is the most succesfful method used and amplified by John Bidwell's " Move-Mount" Shoot" that all Olympic shooter use! Lead becomse invisible as your subconscience takes over and hard focus is on the target.

WHen one plays hockey, one looks at the puck and not the blade. One looks at the baseball and not the mitt as we look at the tennis ball and not the racket. One NEVER looks at the bead of a shotgun! Olympic skeet and trap shooter practice with NO beads! You cannot focus on the target (the prime importance) and the bead!

Here is one more that works: If you think, you stink!! This applies very much to shotgun shooting. The qwick shot on a bounced woodcock! You killed it! Nol looking at the bead, no thinking on which method to use!

Regards
Henry

 

[bangbang]

Question---if the olympians practise without beads--then why put a bead during competition--

Ps: I don't like beads

 

[Bigbubba]

The bottom line is (and several have tried to explain it differently than I would) mount your gun properly, get you sight picture, call for the bird, THEN ONLY LOOK at the bird, and your hands will follow your eyes and you will naturally swing with the bird.

You do have to "lead" hard rights and lefts, if you are not shooting out in front of them they will be lost. As one of my buddies says "shoot where they are going, not where they've been"

Unlike rifle shooting, you dont look at the sights on your shotgun after you mount it correctly. If you are looking at your sights, thats the problem. If you are not leading them, thats also a problem. It also helps to pattern your gun so you have an idea where your shot pattern is - high? low? centered?

There is a real nice pdf you can download from remingtons website about what you should be doing at each station. If you can't find it PM me and I will email it to you

 

[the spank]

I shoot with a bead but I pick a white one simply because it doesn't draw my attention away from the target. I have never understood anyone using hi-vis beads? Man if anything will pull your focus from the target and get you measuring leads it has to be those things. I don't want anything brighter than the target out there in my line of sight.

From the O.P's question I am assuming he is shooting skeet to judge by the staion references. Learn to put into practice good shooting fundamentals. Foot and body stance are of prime concern as well as gum mount. Get the gun in the same spot in the shoulder pocket each time and make sure you are set and ready at your hold point before calling for a target.
As a right handed shooter you should have your belly button lined up with the low house window all the way around the field from stations 1-6 with your feet spread apart parallel as if you are on a pair of skis. This aligns your upper body which you use to swing with by keeping your feet stationary and swing your torso from the hips. This will give you a natural fluid swing without pulling the stock away from your face while chasing the high house bird and pull your gun in towards your face as you swing on the low house bird. I use this method with a sustained lead style of shooting.
On station 7, I do the same thing, feet parallel with my belly button facing parallel to the face of the low house wall. This sets your body position in such a way that when the gun is laid across the chest in a natural hold it is pointed in the direction of the #7 low target flight path. You simply need to hold over the centre stake, wait for the target to come up to your gun barrel and hammer it as it starts across your sight from the right of your gun. This allows you to shoot the 1st target on the same side of the field you are on. The high house target will appear above your line of sight after shooting the first target and you can follow it in to about 10 yards before hammering it to powder.
Station 8 high is the same body position as station 7. You simply turn your torso towards the high house slightly and your body will follow the flight path of the high house bird as it comes in above and to the right of your right shoulder. Station 8 low is the same as station 1. Point your belly button directly in the window of the low house, establish your hold point and follow the bird up and to the left as it rises to pass your left shoulder.

. You should always strive to shoot the birds on the side of the field you are shooting from and try to break first target in the doubles around 15 ft. before reaching dead centre. This gives you time to recover from your follow through of the first shot and pick up and lead the second bird as it approaches the side of the field you are on. If you consistently shoot the birds in the same spot each time it will also help you develop the sight picture you want to see and shotting them will come easier as your mind becomes trained when to shoot.

Here are some hold points and leads

Station 1......belly button at low house window.
High House target............gun directly on flight path 15 ft above centre of field. As the bird passes through your sight pull the trigger. This target requires no swing, the pattern will eat it up.
Low House......gun pointed 4 feet left of the low house window parallel to the window's bottom edge. Pick up and follow the target and shoot it where you would if it were the second target on the doubles. This way you al;ways have the same lead and sight picture. Lead is approximately 10".

Station 2 >Belly Button, Low House Window
HH> Hold gun barrel 3 feet out from parallel to wall and in line with bottom of window. Lead is 6".
LH> Hold gun 8ft in front of window, parallel to bottom edge. Follow target, shoot it where it would be as a double. 1.5 ft. lead.

Station 3> BB> LHWindow
HH>Hold: Divide that side of the field from house to centre in 3 equal parts. Hold out from HH wall 1/3 mark parallel with window bottom. Lead should 2.5 ft.
LH>Hold: Same hold, 1/3 out from LH wall on that side of field and parallel to windows bottom edge. Lead is same as HH.

Station4>BB>LH Window
HH.Hold> Same as #3. Lead is 4 feet.
LH.Hold> Same as # 3. Lead is 4 feet.

Station 5>.BB>LH Window
HH. Hold>Same as 3 and 4. Lead is 2.5 feet, same as 3.
LH. Hold> Same as 3 and 4. Lead is 2.5 feet, same as 3.

Station 6> BB>LH Window
HH> Hold> 8ft out from HH window and level with bottom edge. Lead is 18". Shoot it where you would as the doubles target.
LH> Hold> 3 feet out from parallel to LH wall level with bottom edge of window. Lead is 6".

Station 7>BB Parallel to LH wall face.
HH> Hold > 4 feet out from HH window and level with bottom edge of window. Shoot target where you would as the doubles target. Lead is 10".
LH> Hold > Over centre stake , barrels parallel to ground. Lead is none, simply lift gently as the target crosses your line of sight and keep the bead on it as you pull the trigger.

Station 8 High House, BB Same as on #7.
Hold: 4 feet to right of bottom right corner of window. Lead: Pass through target, fire and keep barrel moving.

Station 8 Low House, BB Same as #1.
Hold: 4 feet left of bottom outside corner of window. Lead: Same as HH.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Question---if the olympians practise without beads--then why put a bead during competition--

Ps: I don't like beads

I would expect that they would compete with the same equipment as they practice! That is unless they are sponsored by those fancy sight companies. There are a few of the top shots who preach look at the target and not the bead and then they advertise for true glow or hi viz

 

[M12shooter]

Proper lead to me is a feel rather than a calculation. Focus on the lead edge of the clay, head of the game bird or whatever. Your brain will do the work from there, follow through and don't get in the habit of lifting your head to view the results...cause if you do, likely it will be a miss. Takes years of practice although a very small group possess some innate ability to hit anything tossed in front of them with any type of firearm. Herb Parsons comes to mind....

 

[BILLSGAME59]

Wow lots of great tips here, lots to consider and come back to. I think should spend some time with a pro and iron out bad practice before it becomes habit. It's a great sport when you get so many people willing to help another guy out by just asking. Thanks!

 

[Covey Ridge]

Wow lots of great tips here, lots to consider and come back to. I think should spend some time with a pro and iron out bad practice before it becomes habit. It's a great sport when you get so many people willing to help another guy out by just asking. Thanks!

Spending time with a qualified instructor. If I had to start all over, that is what i would do. For me, the sooner the better.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Proper lead to me is a feel rather than a calculation. Focus on the lead edge of the clay, head of the game bird or whatever. Your brain will do the work from there, follow through and don't get in the habit of lifting your head to view the results...cause if you do, likely it will be a miss. Takes years of practice although a very small group possess some innate ability to hit anything tossed in front of them with any type of firearm. Herb Parsons comes to mind....

Yep! Proper lead is a feel. A little like driving and negotiating a curve. No one calculates how much the steering wheel needs to move or how much the front end of the vehicle needs to move and at what rate. Eyes on the road and it just happens. Like driving lead just does not happen the first time, but requires practice to get the feel.

 

[bmcrae]

Spending time with a qualified instructor. If I had to start all over, that is what i would do. For me, the sooner the better.

Covey has offered the absolute best tip yet.


Shooters are fantastic for offering advice and tips. They are generally really great people and think they are helping you out. Sadly the information they give is technically wrong a lot of the time (including some advice handed out in this thread).

Seek professional help, or at least engage the services of a trusted/proven club member.

Brad.

 

[BCFred]

I certainly don't have a problem with the idea of getting instruction. But I wonder if we have dealt properly with the potential visual problem CR mentioned earlier. Beginning by seeing an instructor, if there is a visual problem, might not be the best way to start. It might be better to see an optometrist and find out whether there is a visual problem and what it is. This would allow one to tell the instructor precisely what one is dealing with. (Besides, it's probably a good idea to have ones eyes checked anyway. Also, mention what is bothering you to the optometrist and maybe he/she will think about it. Mine is a bright young guy who doesn't know shooting. But he is interested in his clients. During one check-up, where again everything was normal, I mentioned what was happening to me. Once he knew what was going on, he was able to measure a dominance shift for me. Under certain conditions where I am really straining to get visual input my left eye will cut in to try to get more information. It's odd and completely throws me off. I have shot the second bird of a double (and hit it) at station 6, for example, where my shotgun looks like it was 3 feet behind after I shot. It only happens once in awhile and it is a strange feeling.) Some other thoughts have come to me too. Sometimes, for example, I have found it can be wrong to assume there is a problem. One can go through a practice or so when particular shots are off for some reason and everything comes back later on, or the problem disappears with some directed practice. Sometimes it helps to build a correct perception too. One of the things that helped me with leading in skeet was setting up a post at the point on the field that the birds crossed over, then setting posts around 42-43 inches on either side (forget the exact figure, but this is close). Then I stood at each station and looked to see the relationship between the post where the bird would be when I shot at it and the center post. I kept the posts there for awhile during practice too.) This gave me a clear picture of what the lead should be (This exercise is well known. I didn't create it.). It helped because the lead looks different at each station and knowing the actual physical distance only helps a bit. I don't think about the lead when I'm shooting, but quite often visualize it when I am walking up to a station, especially if I feel a bit off or nervous or am having a bad day. Hope things work out. The sport is worth it.

 

[b6ddie]

I shouldn't smile but I've been shooting sporting clays and other clays sports for over 50 years. I'm considered pretty good but, no matter how experienced we are we all have trouble with what is the right lead. Depends on many things but mainly, practice-practice, practice. Stick with it!

 

[1shot]

The more I "think" about the clay or live bird being engaged, then more often than not I tend to miss the target. So lately, I don't "think" about the lead- just go with instinct and remember to keep wood to wood. Also I now keep both eyes open which really helps in judging distance..

 

[gttsc]

Be in front. If you miss, try a bit more in front ;-)

But Brad is spot on. Most of the advice you get at gun clubs is well intentioned sh*te. Seek qualified instruction or at least someone who understands the fundamentals at an advanced level and can give better advice than "you were behind"...lol

I'd also recommend Todd Benders video "Winning with the Fundamentals in Skeet". Money well spent!

 

[stubblejumper]

I shoot with a bead but I pick a white one simply because it doesn't draw my attention away from the target.

I do the same, I have a few guns that have interchangeable inserts, but I always use a small white bead to reduce the distraction.

Shooters are fantastic for offering advice and tips. They are generally really great people and think they are helping you out. Sadly the information they give is technically wrong a lot of the time (including some advice handed out in this thread).

We had one fellow at our club with a background in international skeet, that kept annoying people by offering unsolicited advice, that in many cases just confused the shooters that he was attempting to coach.

Seek professional help, or at least engage the services of a trusted/proven club member.

I was fortunate to be introduced to skeet over 20 years ago by a former national champion that I worked with at the time. Shooting NSSA leagues with him taught me more than I could have ever learned on my own, or by reading books and watching videos. Unfortunately, we no longer have any local shooters anywhere close to that level, so our newer skeet shooters are at a disadvantage.

 

[BCFred]

I'd really pay attention to what CR said about eye dominance and look into that first. (I have a whole story here but, be warned, asking about it will lead to a long conversation. Those who are a little less kind might say a run on forever seniour thingy .) Another thing you might try is to set up a marker (A column of birds will do here, but I built some 2 or 3 foot posts with stands.) at the cross over point on the skeet field and one at 44 or 45 inches before and one at 44 inches or so after it along the trajectory of the bird from the nearest house. Then stand at each position and look at the relationship between the posts before or after the cross over point and the center post (cross over post). This will show you your lead. Notice that the lead is the same, but it looks different at each position. This will give you an idea of the leads and how the perception of them changes. This doesn't help with #1 high house and #7 low house (shoot the legs off) and number 8 is a trick shot that people have various ways of approaching. The exercise with the posts BTW didn't originate with me but has been around forever. I first saw it in a book by Meyer on skeet.

 

[Edgey]

I'd say he's shooting trap or 5-stand since he only mentioned 5 stations not 9. Let's assume it's trap (way more common).

What everyone is getting at is it sounds like you're cross-shooting with your left eye some or all of the time. This should cause you to shoot to the left. That might be why you seem to be better on most of the targets on the left side of the field (station 1 and 2) as error to the left builds the lead in on that side.

Everybody jumped on the eye dominance thing right away, but it could also be a gun fit issue causing you to shoot left. If you have to cant the gun to get the beads to stack it cancause it to shoot left also.

Long story short: find a coach and have them watch you shoot targets. Please note, not all "coaches" are created equal.

I agree with earlier statement to avoid general gun club level advice. However, there is usually at least one guy at the club worth listening to on gun fit and shooting questions. Pay attention a bit and you'll find out who it is. In my experience it's usually not the guy talking the most.