I have a Ross Rifle that appears to be a Mk I. This is the first Ross I have owned, and allthough I was aware of some of the Ross story, I had not really examined one of these closely before. I have now read that the first ones made at the Quebes factory went to the RNWMP and so I wanted to see what serial number I had. Interestingly, I could find no serial number without some disassembly. It seems there is no number on the reciever, but there are markings on the chamber portion of the barrel. There is a crossed flags with crown and D, C, and IP? in the quadrants. Then another larger crown with some marks beneath it I am unsure of. Then , large and clearly, 682 over 1905 over D broad arrow C. There is an H in a larger format that sits out to one side and appears to have been struck seperately. Who can tell me more?
need info re early Ross markings
- Thread starter dpcjradio
- Start date
As indicated by tiriaq, the "H" is part of the serial number - Ross serial numbers were grouped in blocks of 1000 together with a letter designation ...
Here is a portion of a table entitled "Statement Showing the Various Marks and Issues of Ross Rifles, The Dates of Issue, and the Changes from the Previous Mark or Issue" from "The Ross Rifle Story" ... which summarizes information relating to the Mark I Ross rifles supplied to the Milita Department - (The column which would show "Changes" is mostly blank, of course, since there was no earlier model - the only thing appearing there is the "Note" quoted below ...)
Notice that most of the letter series contained even quantities of 1000 rifles each (with the exception of Series H and I, which were 984 and 1016, respectively, for some reason ...) The "Note" appended to this table states:
Based on this table and Note (which I assume is the one referred to by tiriaq) it would appear that all 1000 of the NWMP Mk I Ross rifles had Series C numbers. I also take it, from the Issue dates shown, that the Series "H" rifles were the first ones issued ...
FWIW, the crossed flags symbol is the "Dominion of Canada Proof" mark (the letters are D, C and P (... perhaps your P is double-struck or some such ....)
Here is a portion of a table entitled "Statement Showing the Various Marks and Issues of Ross Rifles, The Dates of Issue, and the Changes from the Previous Mark or Issue" from "The Ross Rifle Story" ... which summarizes information relating to the Mark I Ross rifles supplied to the Milita Department - (The column which would show "Changes" is mostly blank, of course, since there was no earlier model - the only thing appearing there is the "Note" quoted below ...)
Notice that most of the letter series contained even quantities of 1000 rifles each (with the exception of Series H and I, which were 984 and 1016, respectively, for some reason ...) The "Note" appended to this table states:
(The Note doesn't explain why only 500 Series K rifles are shown.)
Based on this table and Note (which I assume is the one referred to by tiriaq) it would appear that all 1000 of the NWMP Mk I Ross rifles had Series C numbers. I also take it, from the Issue dates shown, that the Series "H" rifles were the first ones issued ...
FWIW, the crossed flags symbol is the "Dominion of Canada Proof" mark (the letters are D, C and P (... perhaps your P is double-struck or some such ....)
Thanks and another question
Thanks to GrantR, very helpfull. You are right, that letter is a 'P'.
What was the Militia? Is this a precursor to the Canadain Army, or a civilian organization?
The middle of the stock is stamped M&D and then below this five sets of opposed spear heads. Near the but are numbers, 72120 (I think), and then below another set of spears heads and below again 131. These numbers bear no obvious relationship to the serial number. Any ideas?
Thanks to GrantR, very helpfull. You are right, that letter is a 'P'.
What was the Militia? Is this a precursor to the Canadain Army, or a civilian organization?
The middle of the stock is stamped M&D and then below this five sets of opposed spear heads. Near the but are numbers, 72120 (I think), and then below another set of spears heads and below again 131. These numbers bear no obvious relationship to the serial number. Any ideas?
Until the early 20th Century, Canada had no Army or Navy (and Air Forces were a thing of the future, of course.) Instead, our military was made up entirely of Militia - i.e. volunteer, part time soldiers. In the late 19th Century Parliament finally created a "Permanent Militia" (full time, professional soldiers, who acted as a training cadre for the rest of the Militia) but its total strength was limited to 750 men! (Later raised to 1000.)
Military affairs were administered by the Department of Militia & Defence - which was the full name of the "Militia Department" mentioned in the Note quoted in my posting. The "M&D" stamp you refer to was the "government acceptance & ownership" mark used before adoption of the C-broadarrow. The main such mark prior to "M&D" had been "DC" - signifying Dominion of Canada - usually enclosed within a diamond shaped border (used in and after 1867) .... and before Confederation military firearms and such owned by Canada (then consisting of just Upper Canada and Lower Canada) was "CM", standing for "Canada Militia" ...
Now, does what you are describing as "opposed spearheads" look something like this? -
If that is what the mark looks like (sometimes the points will be touching, sometimes slightly separated) then it is actually "opposed broadarrows" - a "sold out of service" mark, signifying that the firearm had been "surplused" and disposed of legally. (The traditional British government ownership mark applied to firearms and such was the "Broadarrow" - when such items were "sold out of service", that mark was "cancelled" by striking another arrow opposing the first (or even applying a separate "opposed arrows" mark.) Even though Canada had not yet adopted its own distinctive broadarrow mark, the British version may have been used - or at least the "opposed arrows" mark when disposed of. For that matter, the rifle could have ended up in British service (I believe many were sent there during WWII for Home Guard use) before finally being surplused.
The other numbers you mention are likely "issue" or "rack" numbers ... The traditional method of "unit marking" rifles which had been issued was to mark them with a regimental or battalion number (or letter abbreviation) plus a "rack number". For example, if 500 rifles were issued to the 55th Battalion, they would all be numbered "55", and also further numbered from 1 (or 001) through 500. However, if I am not mistaken, during part of the period the Ross rifle was our official military longarm, it may have been the practice to mark the rifle with the regimenatl number (i.e. serial number) of the individual soldier it was issued to - that could well be what the longer number is ... Matter of fact, Ross rifle butts (more so than any other Canadian military rifle) are often marked with an absolute proliferation of such stamps, one set being struck out and another set added, and so on ...
Military affairs were administered by the Department of Militia & Defence - which was the full name of the "Militia Department" mentioned in the Note quoted in my posting. The "M&D" stamp you refer to was the "government acceptance & ownership" mark used before adoption of the C-broadarrow. The main such mark prior to "M&D" had been "DC" - signifying Dominion of Canada - usually enclosed within a diamond shaped border (used in and after 1867) .... and before Confederation military firearms and such owned by Canada (then consisting of just Upper Canada and Lower Canada) was "CM", standing for "Canada Militia" ...
Now, does what you are describing as "opposed spearheads" look something like this? -
If that is what the mark looks like (sometimes the points will be touching, sometimes slightly separated) then it is actually "opposed broadarrows" - a "sold out of service" mark, signifying that the firearm had been "surplused" and disposed of legally. (The traditional British government ownership mark applied to firearms and such was the "Broadarrow" - when such items were "sold out of service", that mark was "cancelled" by striking another arrow opposing the first (or even applying a separate "opposed arrows" mark.) Even though Canada had not yet adopted its own distinctive broadarrow mark, the British version may have been used - or at least the "opposed arrows" mark when disposed of. For that matter, the rifle could have ended up in British service (I believe many were sent there during WWII for Home Guard use) before finally being surplused.
The other numbers you mention are likely "issue" or "rack" numbers ... The traditional method of "unit marking" rifles which had been issued was to mark them with a regimental or battalion number (or letter abbreviation) plus a "rack number". For example, if 500 rifles were issued to the 55th Battalion, they would all be numbered "55", and also further numbered from 1 (or 001) through 500. However, if I am not mistaken, during part of the period the Ross rifle was our official military longarm, it may have been the practice to mark the rifle with the regimenatl number (i.e. serial number) of the individual soldier it was issued to - that could well be what the longer number is ... Matter of fact, Ross rifle butts (more so than any other Canadian military rifle) are often marked with an absolute proliferation of such stamps, one set being struck out and another set added, and so on ...
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